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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mary Cluney who wrote (57249)	7/31/2004 11:14:46 AM
From: unclewest	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793696

This "tough love Stuff" is already after the fact when things are already screwed up and does not stand much chance of doing much real good. That is the only time tough love does much good. At best it could make you feel a little better that people are not getting away with anything, but does not solve any real problems. Tough love is about letting people own all the responsibility for their own behavior and choices. When their bad decisions hurt enough, they solve their own problems.

To: Mary Cluney who wrote (57249)	7/31/2004 12:46:19 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793696

Nevertheless, I have absolute faith that if people have a choice between good and evil, right or wrong, they will always make the right choice. Sure, but what if society sends them a message that largess is there for the taking and that it is right to take it. That's what entitlement means. Shame on you to let a good entitlement go to waste. You're making the right choice, you're just taking your share. Nothing wrong with that. The entitlement mentality takes the "wrong" out of not contributing so good people can do it with a clear conscience. CB made a point earlier about getting for her clients whatever they're entitled to. If it's there, how can you not take it? Remember that I'm a thirty year fed. I know what job security does to people. There is definitely a down side. My dad is in an assisted living community. All his cronies used to brag about how well off they were. Then somebody in the group discovered Section 8 housing supplements and all of a sudden those cronies qualify. Imagine that. These aren't evil people. They're ordinary people. There isn't a one of them who couldn't have foregone the occasional round of golf to pay for long term health care insurance, but why should they be responsible when the community has made provision for them, which tells them it's expected and all right. This "tough love Stuff" is already after the fact when things are already screwed up and does not stand much chance of doing much real good. You're focused on the individual in need of help. I'm talking about the culture that breeds people in who will someday be in need of help. It's just plain bass-ackwards to set up a system that intentionally rewards slackers and penalizes contributors. It makes you feel like a fool for not taking what's offered rather than righteous for having been responsible. It is only later on when things get all screwed up and their choices become more limited that perverse behavior wins out. It's much easier to let things get all screwed up when you know that the community has you covered.

To: Mary Cluney who wrote (57249)	7/31/2004 1:21:46 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793696

I have absolute faith that if people have a choice between good and evil, right or wrong, they will always make the right choice. Mary, that's demonstrably false. It's accurate to say that people have the inherent ability to choose between right and wrong. That's another way of saying that you believe in free will and you also believe that people have an inherent ability to know the difference between right and wrong. But if people always make the correct choice, how can that be? How can there be murder, rape, robbery, theft, fraud, adultery, child abuse, arson and a myriad of other woes inflicted by one human being on another? Surely you are not arguing that the people who commit wrong acts do so because they have no choice? I am starting to wonder whether you're a Presbyterian. Yesterday, I was reading an essay by the old time preacher Jonathan Edwards, very nicely reasoned and argued explanation as to why free will is impossible. Lucky for me, I recently took a short course on evil taught by a Jesuit from Catholic U., so could at least spot the flaws in his reasoning. The various positions on free will and agency are, to me, the most important distinctions forming the basis of our various day-to-day philosophies. I think liberals believe that people can't help themselves, and conservatives believe that they can. By which we all mean healthy strong people past the age of reason.