SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Gold/Mining/Energy : Precious and Base Metal Investing -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: alburk who wrote (30242)8/11/2004 6:43:16 PM
From: russwinter  Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 39344
 
All questions I have pondered. Let's just take copper, because that's the most obvious and the one I'm playing actively.

Backdrop: We have about 14 million MT consumed a year right now. We saw a 0.2% drop in production (let's just call it flat) in the 2nd quarter despite a $1.25 price. If we used Comex, LME and Shanghai inventories for draw down we can closely construct the supply-demand set-up for this market. Since production (supply) is flat we could probably give consideration to utilizing this to diagnose the global economy, they don't call it Dr. Copper for nothing. Maybe a little simplistic, but I think a good exercise. From my daily index card.

May: inventory drawdown was about 78,000 MT: copper deficit is 936,000 annualized, or 6.7% of global demand.

June: inventory drawdown was 72,000 MT; deficit 72,000, 864,000, 6.2% of global demand. Could it be argued that the world economy contracted 0.5% from May to June? I think so.

July: drawdown is 55,000 MT, deficit is 660,000 annualized, 4.7% of global demand.

August: 8 days showing about the same drawdown rate as July.

Did the world economy contract 1.5% in July? That may be overstating it, but I'd still guess July was quite a contraction. Probably July saw the arrival of disrupted Grasberg supply, so that accounts for about half the down shift. I'd say 0.8% is my July-August SWAG. So I'll SWAG global GDP having contracted by 1 1/4% annualized from May to August.

Sure that might give the market "pause", but now let's examine what's required to prevent the remaining 180,000 MT in LME, Comex, and Shanghai inventory from going to goose eggs. The July-August "economic contraction" draw rate is currently about 2600 a day, or 650,000 MT annualized. That's a bit over three months to get to zero. So if the world GDP contracted another 1% immediately, you would get about a 500,000 MT deficit. In otherwords to get the copper market back into equilibrium Dr. Copper (the economy) would have to contract by over 4% (a depression by any measure) from August.

Could that be about to happen? Possibly, but I think you will see price rationing of the last 180,000 MT of inventory first. At any rate your first clue will be in the drawdown rate (spread out over a month or so). Remember there is no meaningful new supply, so if drawdown suddenly dropped to 35,000 a month, that might suggest a another serious economic deceleration was underway, 1.7% by my math.

But let's just take a worse case, we are in mid-Sept, and the draw down has slowed to a 420,000 MT annualized deficit (1750 MT a day), and the global GDP is in deep retreat. We are now down to about 135,000 MT left in inventory. That's nearly four months to zero, a little better calendar wise, but worse in relative numbers. If you are a copper consumer (say China), aren't you going to be getting damn nervous, weak economy or not? And how about those hedge funds, wouldn't they be tempted to start a run, weak economy or not?

Then just carry out this exercise on through. Conclusion: a severe depression (6% drop from last spring) will bring the copper market back into equilibrium at extremely low inventory levels. I think there will be a depression from this, but caused by price spikes from severe shortages, probably in both energy and metals, and in time even food (a subsistence item). New supply you say? That's several years away, and I don't see anybody whatsoever in a hurry to deal with that solution, do you? HUGO trades at 3.88 today, NTO at 1.96. They have two of the best undeveloped deposits in the world, and nobody seems lined up for them, at least today.



To: alburk who wrote (30242)8/12/2004 11:54:19 AM
From: russwinter  Respond to of 39344
 
Well, if you listen to the WMT call, and think it's credible (??), they will tell you that procurement is hunky doory. In otherwords they have Asian sources that are totally willing to lose money and chew through resources, just for the "honor" to selling to WMT. I think it's reassuring (in the world according to WMT) that the Chinese are just going to drive off the cliff, and take metal inventories down to zero.

WMT would also have you believe that price increases weren't significant, although they did mention that food sales were up double digit over plan. Gee, I guess all the wide bodies who go through these stores, are of the diets and have larger appetites right now.



To: alburk who wrote (30242)8/13/2004 11:07:47 PM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum  Respond to of 39344
 
Andrew,
I take a more simplistic view.. . China has about 1 billion more people than the US. Only about say 300 million are involved in the party so far and likely more limited that than Americans or Canucks. China isn't building infrastructure to ensure JIT inventory delivery for Walmart but rather they are trying to build domestic demand. Yes it's a race...

regards
Kastel