Here is the last half of Scarbourgh's Monday show. Oliphant thinks Kerry has a big speech planned for tomorrow. He should know. His son works for him.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, for more on the story, including the swift boat ads and “The Washington Post” article I told you about yesterday that does a great job investigating both sides, just visit our Web site at Joe.MSNBC.com.
And joining me now is veteran “Boston Globe” columnist Tom Oliphant.
He has covered Senator John Kerry since his early days in Washington.
And, Tom, I got to tell you, I love the hair. I love the jacket that you wore back then. I mean, look at that. Great shot of you.
TOM OLIPHANT, “THE BOSTON GLOBE”: Still crazy after all these years.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: Exactly.
OLIPHANT: Though, I will tell you the difference. It‘s funny. Kerry and I have managed to stay skinny as a rail. John O‘Neill really has put on weight.
I did a show with him last week, and I was quite surprised, because he was a slight fellow back in 1971.
SCARBOROUGH: You are living right. You are living right.
Tom, I want to ask you the same question that I asked at the top of the show. How in the world—you know John Kerry so well. You have been with this guy since the early 1970s covering him. Did you ever imagine over the past 30, 35 years that, when John Kerry ran for president, that his military record in Vietnam would be this hotly debated in August as a negative?
OLIPHANT: Well, I don‘t know if it‘s a negative or not, Joe, but I not only imagined it. I expected it, because it has been a regular feature in every race he has ever run.
SCARBOROUGH: How did he get around it? I know 1996 especially, a lot of these same gentlemen that were criticizing him today in 1996 actually were backing him, weren‘t they?
OLIPHANT: Well, actually, the history is a lot more rich than that. It was all over that first fight for Congress in 1972 when he got kicked in the stomach and deserved it, by the way, when he lost.
It was all over his initial primary for the U.S. Senate in 1984, especially at the end. It was all over the general election that year. People tried it. It happened in 1990, when he didn‘t really have much of a contest, and then it happened for real in 1996. It has been a regular feature of his political life.
It sounds anomalous, but I think his opponents are so transfixed by this notion of a Democrat, a liberal, if you will, who has fought in a war, that there is almost an irresistible temptation to pick at that record and try to find something to attack in it. It happens all the time. And Kerry‘s response, interestingly, is always the same.
SCARBOROUGH: Don‘t you think his response time has been a little slow over the past week or so? Do you think he should have jumped on this earlier, especially if he has seen it, as you have said, from one campaign to the next?
OLIPHANT: As a timing issue, Joe, I don‘t want to—I mean, you have more expertise in these things than I do. My observation, however, has been that when you want to watch a fight like this is when the counterattack starts.
Without making any predictions how it‘s going to go, what Kerry is doing now is classic Kerry behavior where his Vietnam experience is concerned. And there‘s going to be more of this tomorrow, a lot more, not just television advertising, by the way. And if I interpret what his people are saying, they want this debate to continue.
SCARBOROUGH: Oh, really? Is that because they want—are they going to be more forceful, do you believe, in contrasting what John Kerry did during Vietnam and what George W. Bush did during Vietnam?
OLIPHANT: That‘s not my understanding, Joe. The way I get it is that they want the issue to be whether he is a legitimate recipient of some of the country‘s highest military honors. And they are perfectly happy to keep right on arguing about it.
I think the key—a lot of this, it‘s been my experience, anyway, is Kerry personally. I mean, Vietnam is like a scab in America, and different people for different reasons still pick at it, as we try to heal. With John Kerry, it‘s a scab for him. And all I can tell you is that whenever people pick at it—I hate to use his swift boat analogy, but he really does turn the boat into the incoming fire. That‘s his record, and what he is doing now is just vintage Kerry.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Tom, stay with us.
You know, I read something that you wrote in “The American Prospect” that I talked to you about before. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about the real John Kerry that you have known, that you have covered for the past 35 years.
And we will do that in a second when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: We are going to have more with award-winning journalist Tom Oliphant. He is going to tell us the Kerry that you should know. Going to be talking about that in a second.
But, first, let‘s get the latest headlines from the MSNBC News Desk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
SCARBOROUGH: Hey, welcome back to the show.
I am talking, of course, to award-winning journalist Tom Oliphant, who has covered John Kerry for over 30 years.
Now, Tom, you wrote about the Nixon administration‘s relationship with John O‘Neill. And, of course, O‘Neill is the author of “Unfit For Command.” But he first debated Kerry more than 30 years ago.
And this is what you wrote—quote—“O‘Neill was recruited not just for the Cavett show, but to debate Kerry in other forums and to make appearances on Nixon‘s behalf. He got pep talks directly from Nixon, who had a fixation with Kerry‘s appeal.”
So, Tom, why do you believe that Nixon then used this guy and some Republicans are now going back to the well and using him again?
OLIPHANT: Well, you know, the actual originator of this campaign was the retired admiral who had commanded all of these swift boat units in Vietnam at the time, a fellow by the name of Roy Hoffman.
But the first person he went to was John O‘Neill, who, of course, has this history. To an extent, you know—I remember those debates as if they were yesterday, Joe. And they are the exact opposite, believe it or not, of this shouting match that I don‘t think you like any more than I do. This was an argument about whether there should be a specific date for an American withdrawal from Vietnam or whether there was a reason to keep the war going.
It wasn‘t of the quality, say, of the teach-ins around America in the mid-1960s, but I actually found their joint appearances not only entertaining, but informative. O‘Neill was a very intelligent and articulate defender of the Nixon administration‘s policies in the war, and Kerry was an extremely articulate opponent of them. And I saw them maybe three or four times together and O‘Neill once or twice just on his own. By the way, I remember a press conference where O‘Neill went out of his way to say that he was not raising a single question about Kerry‘s service in Vietnam, which he assumed had been honorable.
SCARBOROUGH: Have you lost some respect for Mr. O‘Neill since this latest debate started taking root the past couple weeks?
OLIPHANT: Well, no, because, I mean, I work the boring side of the street, Joe, and I try to avoid the highly personal side.
What I said to him in a joint appearance we had last week on PBS was that I thought the accusations that his book makes and some of the fellows he has recruited for his organization made don‘t meet minimal journalistic standards for proving a point, and that one reason this thing has existed until last week, really, as a kind of below-the-radar talk show, cable tabloid story was that, in the national press, the accusations had not met really minimal journalistic standards for credibility.
He is a pleasant guy, and, again, not just on Dick Cavett, which is the stuff that you see played over and over again, but in these joint appearances. I remember one in particular before the U.S. Conference of Mayors in Philadelphia, and I think an honest or objective observer of those debates would, A, call them extremely good entertainment, and, B, have scored them pretty even.
SCARBOROUGH: Tom, I was talking about an “American Prospect” article that you wrote. It says “The Kerry You Should Know.” A lot of people still are scratching their heads, saying, who is John Kerry? What makes him tick? How about answering that question?
OLIPHANT: Remember, everybody who is trying to be elected president for the first time is something of a mystery.
But if I could just pick one thing, Joe, it wouldn‘t be Vietnam, despite all this noise we keep having. I think the most important thing is an answer to the question of how did he get to this national stage. And the funny thing is, the key event, as far as I am concerned, was getting clobbered in that first House race of his in 1972.
A lot of people don‘t know this, but it took him 10 years from that defeat to be elected to an office I am sure you would never have run for, Joe, lieutenant governor of Massachusetts.
(LAUGHTER)
OLIPHANT: And, in between, there was three years of law school, about three years running a very large prosecutor‘s office in suburban Boston, and then a couple of years as a boutique law firm partner, before he finally made it to elective office.
And the point that I draw from that experience of his is that his root in politics has actually had very little to do with his pedigree, the prep schools, the family money, Yale, and, as it turned out, Vietnam. He came up the ladder. And in the Senate, kind of like John Kennedy over a much longer period of time, he hasn‘t particularly distinguished himself, so much as he has taken the openings there were there for him. And, as a result, he has arrived on the national stage not as some kind of shooting star or meteor.
He has gotten here one rung at a time, kind of like a lot of people who come up the slow, hard way in politics. And I always respect—one thing I always respected him for was after that initial punch in the jaw, he went back and did it the hard way.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, isn‘t that interesting? You could say the same thing about Bill Clinton.
OLIPHANT: Absolutely.
SCARBOROUGH: Who lost his first race for Congress in Arkansas.
OLIPHANT: Look, I know that longevity and incumbency are not popular words in the vocabulary of politics today, but I am one of these people who thinks the long, hard way sometimes is a good way to form a person.
Now, you know, you can argue that Kerry is a cautious politician, not a bold one. But, on the other hand, you could probably make a case that the times we are living in would benefit from a leader who perhaps is more interested in seeking consensus than having some grand ideological victory.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Tom, thanks a lot. We appreciate you being with us tonight.
OLIPHANT: My pleasure.
SCARBOROUGH: And, if you will, stick around, because we are going to be continuing to talk about John Kerry, the swift boat ads, and much more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hey, we are back talking about John Kerry with journalist Thomas Oliphant. We also have with us tonight “Boston Herald” columnist and MSNBC contributor Mike Barnicle and syndicated radio talk show host Dennis Prager.
Mike Barnicle, let‘s start by talking about the most important thing. It looks like the Boston Red Sox are going to put themselves in the position again to break our hearts. Devastating. I think—I really think they are going to do it. They are going to get me believing again, and then lose.
MIKE BARNICLE, NBC ANALYST: Well, my heart has already been broken tonight, Joe, because I know that Oliphant gave away that sport coat that he was wearing in 1970.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: Well, I want to ask you the same thing I asked Tom. Did you ever imagine, when John Kerry ran for president, that we would actually be debating his war record in August?
BARNICLE: You know, as Tom indicated earlier—and like Tommy, I have covered John Kerry for a number of years—it didn‘t surprise me that it came up this time, because it has come up in each and every time that he has been on the ballot.
But the level and the depth of the obsession with it has surprised me. That we are now down apparently to how deep were the wounds, how many liters of blood did he expend, that has surprised me.
SCARBOROUGH: You surprised that Bob Dole came out yesterday and really took a swipe at somebody that he called his friend?
BARNICLE: Yes, that kind of surprised me, but I suppose that nothing in an election year, given the low level of our politics recently, nothing really should surprise us, huh?
SCARBOROUGH: Dennis Prager, I want to ask you if you fear that these attacks eventually could backfire on the Bush campaign?
DENNIS PRAGER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: There‘s no telling the future on this. I am tempted, as someone supporting the president, to say they won‘t backfire. I don‘t know. I don‘t predict the American people‘s reaction.
But if I may answer your first question, the obsession—and I ask the other two gentlemen if they would comment—to be fair here, isn‘t the obsession entirely the doing of John Kerry? That‘s all he talks about. I covered for my radio show the Democratic Convention in Boston. That‘s all he talks about. There is no John Kerry from Vietnam to his acceptance speech. The man doesn‘t exist. He has no record.
So if he is obsessed with Vietnam, if that‘s all he talks about, isn‘t it fair to talk about it? There‘s nothing else to talk about the man.
BARNICLE: Well, I‘ll take a crack at that, Joe.
Certainly, it‘s fair to talk about it, seeing that John Kerry has raised it numerous times. There‘s no doubt about that. It‘s been a pivotal point in his election campaign. It‘s been a pivotal point in his life. But to say that you don‘t hear him talk about anything else indicates that we are all part of this chattering cable world so obsessed with this one issue. If you go out on the stump...
PRAGER: Lost the sound.
SCARBOROUGH: Lost Mike Barnicle.
Tom Oliphant, let me have you respond to that.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Do you think John Kerry may have made a—made a mistake by just talking about Vietnam?
OLIPHANT: I know where my longtime pal Mike Barnicle was going, so I could almost like finish the sentence.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: OK. Go ahead.
OLIPHANT: Obviously, this has been a much richer campaign than that, particularly away from the kind of atmosphere we are in right now.
The best example would be just before he and John Edwards came out of nowhere in Iowa in January. But I think you can all—if you travel around the country and cover the campaign, you wouldn‘t notice this thing, except in prime-time viewing hours on cable, very much, until the last week. So there‘s much more to this campaign than just that. And there will be much more to this campaign than that.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Dennis Prager.
PRAGER: Yes, at the convention itself, that was the primary aim. That was—the movie was largely about him in Vietnam. He had his fellow soldiers, seaman, on with him on the stage when he gave his address.
He report—“My name is John Kerry and I am reporting for duty.” There is an obsession. Secondly, the Democrats really started it by constantly attacking President Bush‘s nonrecord or record vis-a-vis the Air National Guard. So how could the Democrats be angry over this? It‘s their obsession, and now finally there‘s a response.
(CROSSTALK)
PRAGER: One other point. Forgive me. One other point.
OLIPHANT: Yes.
PRAGER: The veterans are angry. And I understand that anger, and it truly has nothing to do with President Bush.
John Kerry did devote his life as a young man to saying that the soldiers in Vietnam, by and large, were Nazi-like atrocity-mongers. They are angry about that, and they are now venting that anger that this is the man running for president. I somehow empathize with those people, even though I myself opposed the war.
SCARBOROUGH: Tom.
OLIPHANT: OK.
Now, first of all, let me begin by agreeing with the point about Boston, and about frankly other stages in the campaign, particularly a year ago, when Kerry was doing quite poorly. It‘s a very fair point that he has made this, if not the centerpiece, a centerpiece of his campaign. What I am not sure about yet and what makes politics so fascinating for me is that, if you think he led with his chin about Vietnam, I think the activities of the last several days, beginning Wednesday night, remind me very much of what I have seen Kerry do time and time again, particularly over the last 22 years.
And that is almost invite people to go after his record in Vietnam, because what has always mattered to him politically has been his counterattack, and that is what we are seeing now. There‘s another big phase of it due to start tomorrow. It interests me right now, just as a political observer, how anxious Kerry is to have this be the centerpiece for as long as it turns out to be the centerpiece of the campaign.
SCARBOROUGH: Tom, I want to ask you about the statements made in 1971 by John Kerry in front of the Senate. You were actually there with him that day. You were there before he made the speech. You actually walked with him over before he went in and gave that speech.
Do you believe—did you understand—Dennis was talking about how a lot of vets were offended by what he said that day. I live in a Navy town. I certainly hear it an awful lot down here, too. Do you think John Kerry should apologize for making those statements about the cutting off of the ears, or do you think he still believes that?
OLIPHANT: Well, actually, I am not one of these people who calls on anybody to apologize. I am not a virgin in politics.
(LAUGHTER)
OLIPHANT: I don‘t expect it to be nice.
But let me put it this way. I had been with this particular group of veterans three months before in Detroit. I was with them on the National Mall during that demonstration. The one thing where I would disagree is that I never generalize about Vietnam veterans. It‘s a fascinating, constantly evolving network of people in this country, and you get the whole gamut of emotions and political feelings when you deal with them.
The other thing that I would just say is that, on the Mall, you constantly encountered guys, anguished guys, who wanted to tell you not about what they were charging others with, but who wanted to tell you what they had done. What Kerry was talking about in that testimony was, he was recounting people who had told what they had done and seen with their own eyes.
If he made a mistake, at least as we have talked about it over and over again these last 30 years, the mistake may have been in not putting this in a broader context of guys trying their best in a hideous situation, and most of whom, of course, didn‘t do that.
SCARBOROUGH: Thanks, Tom.
We‘ll be right back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH:
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Welcome back.
Dennis Prager, how key is this swift boat controversy going to be going through the Republican Convention and beyond in the fall?
PRAGER: Well, they‘re not going to mention it at the convention.
That‘s obvious.
But I‘ll tell you this. If a man‘s entire, or nearly entire, resume consists of one thing—namely, I fought in Vietnam for four months; I got three Purple Hearts and an award, and I‘m not going to allow the Navy to release all the records concerning that—I think it‘s fair game for people to say, well, really, if this is all you have to claim the presidency, it‘s fair to investigate.
And given what you said about our Army, we have some anger at you, is what the veterans are saying. I think it‘s fair.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, thanks so much, Dennis Prager.
Tom Oliphant, greatly appreciate you being there.
And, hopefully, we‘ll get Mike Barnicle back tomorrow night.
We‘ll see you tomorrow night when we have Merrie Spaeth on SCARBOROUGH
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