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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (145233)	9/9/2004 4:08:19 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

"Tell me again how we're "gardeners of freedom," spreading the "seeds of liberty and justice," cause sometimes I forget." Since I did not tell you that on a previous occasion, I can not tell it to you again.

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (145233)	9/9/2004 4:14:42 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

"And don't forget my post questioning the "common wisdom" that "everyone wants freedom" and that "democracy will destroy terrorism." I doubt that I can find any sane group of people who abhore freedom. Maybe you could point me to this hypothetical group you keep referring to. Most sane people recognise that terrorism is a response from the powerless to the powerful out of frustration. Not much more. I don't have a clue how you came up with the your notions on common wisdom.

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (145233)	9/9/2004 4:34:00 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 281500

"Or maybe I'm wrong." You appear to be off base on a lot of things. Partly because your presumptions are convoluted but mostly because you are trying to advance your political objective more than you are trying to have a rational discussion in earnest. "Maybe if the situation were reversed, then the mirror-image actions of Iraqis conducting themselves here would make YOU want to emulate their wonderful form of government?" The reverse situation is bogus. Here is why: The Iraqis have no National identity except the one represented by the coalition government. You are not refering to them, you are referring to the Shi'ite extremists or the Sunni Extremists or the Kurds, none of which are representative of what 'Iraqis' want. Iraqis want what any sane human being wants, to live in relative peace and safety with a significant degree of autonomy in their coexistance with others. Your complaints could be, and have been parroted by the Sunni Extremist Al-Zaraquawi. OK. Who does he speak for then? He speaks for the Wahabi extremists commonly associated with Al-Quaida. What do they want? Their primary goal is to establish control of the world via a Muslim run Caliphate, which they would direct. This would initially mean subordinating the rest of the population of Iraq and eventually the world. So, your question has at least some potential validity. "...conducting themselves here would make YOU want to emulate their wonderful form of government? " Your complaints could also be, and have been parroted by the Shi'ite Extremist Al-Sadr. OK. Who does he speak for then? He speaks for the manifestation of the Al-Mahdi Army that will pave the way for Al-Mahdi to be revealed in the world. What do they want? Their primary goal is to establish control of the world via a Muslim run government that would also include a Caliphate, which they would direct. This would initially mean subordinating the rest of the population of Iraq and eventually the world. So, your question again has at least some potential validity. "They said they were there to help you. Liberty and freedom were calling to you. Democracy was within your grasp. Of course you'd be willing to fight and die for it; or would you? Ever?" So, again your stuck. Your stuck in the same dilemma as always. Everything you speak of is filtered through your western constipation with compulsion for conversion. The only people you are speaking for in Iraq are the Zaraquawis and the Al-Sadrs. If the reverse were true it would not be the noble mission to offer an opportunity for liberty and justice to populations of people who have been brutally tyrannized. It would be to brutally tyrannize people who had lived under liberty and justice. "The tooth fairy isn't real, Santa Clause doesn't deliver, and the Iraqis see what we do, not what we tell them or what we intend." Absolutely, and if we walk out on them, we leave them in the hands of extremely powerful and brutal murdering tyrannists. They know exactly what that means and so will never speak against it until they begin to believe they have personal and national security against such entities. We are supporting that and we have seen the results when people know they are free to speak from the heart. I know many Iraqis. I can tell you don't.