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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (145369)	9/10/2004 3:04:45 PM
From: TimF	Respond to of 281500

Busybody politics at the point of a gun That description more accurately describes what the people we are fighting in Iraq are trying to impose, except that "busybody politics" is too weak. or unless the WORLD decides to act as a unified body "The WORLD" never has decided to act as a unified body. If you mean "the UN", I don't think it makes much moral difference. If the war is wrong it would not become right with 100% support from the UN, and it it is the right thing to do it doesn't become an immoral act because the UN withholds its support. Tim

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (145369)	9/10/2004 3:45:52 PM
From: Bruce L	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<<What is it that YOU believe? Do you believe in the right of sovereign nations to self determination. Cause if you believe in the right of other nations to choose their own, admittedly tortured and twisting paths to SELF-determination, then you surely don't believe that our leaders in Washington have the power, much less the right, to choose the governors and governments of other nations. >> Ed: My friend and soul brother, putting aside the rhetoric, here is the heart of our disagreement. Yes, I believe that our leaders have (1)the power and (2)the right to influence the government and institutions of other sovereign nations. No question we have the power. As to the right, we have the right because (I believe) it is in our self-interest to promote free and democratic societies. 1. Did we have the "right" to go to war with Germany to stop the genocide of a people? 2. Did we have the "right" to provoke Japan to war to stop their barbarity in China? 3. Did we have the right to overthrow the apartheid regime in South Africa. 4. Did we have the right to stop the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? 5. Did we have the right to intervene in the government directed slaughter of Tutsis in Ruanda? (IMO we should have but didn't.) 6. Is George W's principled attempt to mobilize the world to stop the slaughter of both black Christians and muslim dissidents in the Sudan "right"? (Every "liberal" who knows anything about this ignored backwater of the world does, although disapproving of every other one of his policies. And "Europe", the black African and, of course Arab, states ignore it too.) SO TELL ME, WHAT MORAL PRINCIPLE CAN YOU CITE FOR THIS "ISOLATIONIST" BELIEF THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT? Why do you feel that Iraq is a TABLA ROSA that every other world and historical force can influence, but the United States can not? Sicily Just for example, I know the historical forces - the centuries of foreign domination and repression - that led to the Sicily we have today: the mafia and that backward, hierarchal and distorted society. In such a society, an individual cannot exist free; he cannot exist as an individual at all. To me that society is "bad", and to hell with politically correct cultural relativism! IRAQ The many "peoples" of Iraq were dominated, exploited and suppressed for 500+ years by the Ottomans. Then "colonized" by the British who used the Sunnis to do their dirty work. Then 20 years under the benevolence of Saddam. So I do know something of the tribal and clannish influences that make life all but impossible for the free individual. To me that also is "bad." So, tell me again why we do not have the right and power to intervene to make things better? Especially if it serves our selfish national interest?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (145369)	9/10/2004 4:30:35 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 281500

OK... We have been over this enough... There is no self determining Iraqi people. Your bogus proclamation is your self serving attack against the political 'side' here. You registered to vote so you feel bound to bolster any position that helps your 'side' and weakens the other 'side'. At least drop the pretense of caring about Iraqis. "...OUR view of how those people should live? My view is that 'those' people should be able to live with relative safety from barborous and murdering oppressive tyrants. If you want to declare that you BELIEVE, Brutally tyrannous extremists out to be allowed to conquer and oppress people and call that self determining nations that are none of our business, then I get your point.... I don't actually believe you have any bigger point than bolstering your petty partisan position ... ", if you believe that we have the right and the power to rule the futures of other cultures and other religions, if you ignore the lessons of history revealing that all peoples must find their own path to a better life and that the way to that better life is usually paved with grave mistakes, then, and only then, can you find logical support for the approach we're taking in Iraq and for your support of it." What I have made abundantly clear to you many times now is that I believe we have a responsibility to stand up for liberty and justice for all. It is an inalienable right of all human beings... we are born with it, our constitution recognizes it.. thank God. I will continue to stand up in any and all cases, whether in my living room between my kids or on a larger scale, you are too busy trying to spin your petty partisan agenda in a favorable direction... and you have made that abundantly clear. At least be man enough to admit it. YOU don't care about the suffering of your fellow man except as it can be used to bolster your petty partisan agenda. YOU stand behind brutal tyrannists to determine the fate of the people they oppress.