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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bruce L who wrote (146723)9/30/2004 1:27:35 PM
From: redfish  Respond to of 281500
 
yes



To: Bruce L who wrote (146723)10/4/2004 2:56:12 AM
From: Bruce L  Respond to of 281500
 
Re: "The Fall of Baghdad" by Jon Lee Anderson

This a powerful, powerful indictment of the MANNER of America's occupation of Iraq. I recommend it having found its detailed analysis compelling. Also, a compelling indictment of Saddam.

Some of my notes:

Before the War

An Iraqi exile: America will win but something you should know about Iraqis: "you can win them over fast and you also lose them fast.... The Americans should put in any gov't they can find and ... leave."

Saddam's palaces: Like the emperor's clothes, Iraqis saw but pretended not to see.

Norway's diplomat: certain Saddam had chemical weapons.

Iraqi People & children: for 30 years they were taught Americans hated Arabs in general and Iraqis in particular

An Iranian religious fundamentalist: We want the US to topple Saddam, but in the process to pay a "high price." The US will pay a high price because so many Irqis are linked to the system. If I were the Americans I would put another dictator in his place; I hope the Americans don't have an advisor like me.

Tens of thousands of Iraqis of Persian descent - as well as Shias - fled to Iran. Many horror stories.

70 year old Shia exile cleric (Korani): If the US stood justly with the Palestinian situation, "it's moral power would be stronger than its army's." Also "If you (America) do anything, do it quickly."

The View of Many Iraqis: ' Saddam as well as Hitler got a bad rap and it was all the fault of the jews.'

Dr Bashir (Saddam's personal physician): "Listen closely to the (Iraqis)....But remember, the truth is to be found in what they don't say." Also, "If Saddam stays in power, it would be a victory for murder, torture and blloodshed." No place in the world crueler than Iraq.

The 19 yr old reigning Miss Germany came to Baghdad with a peace group to see Saddam; instead she was invited to dinner with Uday; the next morning she left Iraq unexpectedly without saying a word to the press corps.

The "human shields" came to Baghdad in force; O'Keeefe (sanskrit tattoos), their leader, and "Donkey Boy" (porn star), vie for the favors of Miss Norway. Ramsay Clarke, U.S. Attorney General under Carter, also present

Peter Arnett also present, "huffing self-importantly"..

The Invasion

Dr Bashir" The whole country and even Baath Party members, ae weary and apathetic, as if they don't care .... and are resigned to whatever happens."

Sabah (author's driver) couldn't be teased about the might and power of the American airstrikes during the night; directed against the power of his nation, "it must have been deeply humiliating for an Iraqi to bear..." whatever his feelings about Saddam.

During the airstrikes on Baghdad, the foreign Muslim jihadis start to arrive in force. Different facial features,beards and the fervent expressions of true believers.

Author gets Marine protection for the last functioning hospital in Central Baghdad: looters make 2 assaults at night.

Iraqis ask author "Why?" He had no answer. "I was dismayed and angry that my countrymen were simply standing by and watching as Bagdad was sacked and burned. It made no sense at all.

Dr Bashir on looters: " Before Iraq was a state, his land was desert inhabited by Bedouins, and they survived by raiding one another's camps....Nothing has changed"... My patients are all looters. Why sould I treat them?"

Dr Bashir on pilgrims: "The biggest problem they must deal with are these religious people. The Americans must put them in their place quickly or they will cause a lot of trouble."

Bashir on Saddam: "To be honest, I think he was the victim of himself and the people surrounding him...I think the fatal mistake was to allow the supreme pwer he had to overcome all the other good things inside himself. He came to power when he was young..." "Uday was not just violent; he was a criminal."

Bashir: The author noticed a certain pride in his telling anecdotes of Saddam. "I couldn't help thinking that constant flattery from the dictator had had a seductive effect."

THE OCCUPATION

Bashir: The Americans "came with the language of liberty and human rights, so they can't be too tough, or they'll be accused of being the same as Saddam." They don't appear to have a plan. "Why have they left everything so loose? They've left everything with no order, no security, for almost a month.."

June 2003: The author returned after 2 months in England. Baghdad was filthy, unkempt and baking hot. Great heaps of rubble spilled out from bombed buildings. Trash was uncollected, Trafic was dense, but there were no traffic cops in sight. An American armored convey passed, soldiers in full combat gear had their guns at the ready.

Baghdad, previously one of the safest cities in the world, was no longer safe to walk around.

An American soldier was killed standing guard at Baghdad University. For days afterwards, the dead soldiers furious comrades aggressively pointed their guns and shouted curses at onlookers.

Fallujah: Once the killings began, the cycle of vilence had become dificult to stop. Dr Waleed advised the Americans to seek out and make riends with 2 of the most influential imans. If they had done that , the city could possibly have been pacified.

But said Waleed: "The Americans are very good listeners, but they don't seem to do anything." "Until now the Americans in Iraq are wearing blinders...They know this, and they know there is a big gap... and they must bridge this gap, but ... they have not. Waleeds view was typical of Iraqi professionals.

Farouk Salloum: Was a favored poet from Tikrit. His view was that the problems in Baghdad were the result of a huge influx of Shia peasans from Sumeria: "Looters and thieves," he called them. His view, shared with many Baghdadis, was that the Americans never tried to touch base with Iraq's educated class. He said, "The resistance is a combination of Al Qaeda and Shia religious fundamentalists backed by Iran."

Sheikh Ibrahim: Tribal leader who was jailed by Saddam. "I am becoming a pessimist, because the Americans come, they listen to our proposals....but they do nothing...It seems they just come to do reconnaisance."

The emerging mosaic of post-Saddam Iraq: "...every imaginable political party, religiouus faith, and ethnic group was now jockeying for its place in the sun. The transformation was occurring at a vertiginniious speed, and with it, Baghdad had become a Tower of Babel."

November 2003: Ali, a Sunni businessman: "The suicide bombers mostly come from outside Iraq, but I'll candidly tell you, as Iraqis, when we hear that one of these people has killed Americans, we are happy....Anyone who says differently is lying...

Nasser al-Sadon, the exile: "If the Americans pulled their troops out of the cities, most Iraqis would accept their continued presence in the country to guarantee their transition to democracy.

Iraq's first priority is strong Iraqi leadership. "The government must be hard and strict. Killers should be hanged in the streets, so that people can see what happens if they commit vilent crimes, It cannot be as the Americans say: "No more death penalty in Iraq."

The Author: "Freedom has only notional value unless a state is capable of harnessing its benefits for its citizens. For that to be possible, here must be security. It seems like a simple formula, but it ..." is still missing.

Professional people fear to send their children to school for fear of kidnapping, not by terrorists, but by criminals.

Mouayed al-Muslih: Was chief engineer of the grounded Iraqi airline. Said most Iraqis were pleased with the overthrow of Saddam and had had high expectations. Not now. "You know, there are those of us who don't want the Americans to leave so quickly, but...Believe me when I say that most Iraqis want freedom and democracy, They want ...education and health care....but as long as the Americans don't behave the right way, there will be problems between us."

Prisoners of the Americans: Do not report especially bad treatment, but every one - including those who had not been opposed to the Americans before their arrest - come out determined to fight Americans one way or another.

FINAL FOOTNOTE: While it is not contained in his book, Anderson in a recent NPR interview spoke of the targeted assasination of professionals to make the people "pulp" for the zealots; and he does NOT advocate that the U.S or Britain abruptly pulling out.

Bruce



To: Bruce L who wrote (146723)10/4/2004 11:16:19 PM
From: Bruce L  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
A long essay i wrote for another thread on the historical background to the U.S. Constitutional Convention, FWIW.

BILL OF RIGHTS AND THE FOUNDING FATHERS Message 20599855