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To: brian h who wrote (54006)	10/5/2004 5:32:50 PM
From: Seeker of Truth	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Hi Brian, I see your opinion more clearly now. Your original statement was somewhat misleading. The word country is not a clear concept. I am moved by your fervour. I would like to say that I think that Yiwu is not a liar. She is simply a devout Communist believer, ready at all times to believe the most atrocious lies, provided they are told by the Communist Party. Please grant the possibility that, like you, she hopes for the best for the Chinese people. She is ready to sacrifice part of the People's Liberation Army soldiers and many Taiwanese Chinese people if the party tells her that that really saves lives in the end. My own feeling is that political progress, is being made on the mainland but it is much much slower than the economic progress. I won't live to see a democratic China. It's maybe 50-70 years away. By democratic country I mean one where you can relax and say anything you want. We have to approach deeply religious people with sympathy. Let's not call them liars if they think that what they are saying is true. The religion fills some void in their lives. Malcolm

To: brian h who wrote (54006)	10/6/2004 12:30:22 AM
From: TobagoJack	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

should not take ribbing too seriously bad for health must take it easy chugs, jay

To: brian h who wrote (54006)	10/7/2004 2:02:45 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

<I see one here called YiWu. I do not like this lady > Brianh, I don't think that "lady" can be applied to somebody in favour of attack and murder of innocent and harmless people. It's funny how Jay and Yiwu think that Chinese are some kind of clonesville mindless automatons who chant the Zemin mantras in unison as I saw during the hideous 50th anniversary display of state oppression when Jiang Zemin motored up and down like a caricature of Adolf at a Nuremberg rally, shouting "Sieg" and the Chinese crowd shouting back, in unison, "Heil", or whatever it was that they shouted in Chinese. The meaning was in the sound, not the words. The meaning was clear, without understanding the words. It's surprising that Jay is given to the idea that there are 1.3 billion Chinese clonesville clowns, and you, one single weirdo expatriate, who has no idea what's going on and are on the wrong side of history and in all likelihood to be steam-rollered. Racists do have that collectivist bent. China is indeed a second class country. Heck, a third class one. Worse, a fourth class one in many ways [such as not even having a democratic process to throw the blighters out]. Jay is right that Chinese in China are second class people in a second class country [or worse = maybe 4th class]. But definitions of "class" being bandied about could get very tricky. They get pushed into being second class people just as survivors of any nasty place get pushed to acting in less than savoury ways if they are to survive. Jay earns money from China and lives in Hong Kong so had better genuflect to the bosses or have his foundations removed. I'd be kneeling to Saddam if I lived under his rule and I'd be praising Jiang Zemim if I was stuck inside the event horizon of the black hole which is China. They know how to deal with recalcitrant freedom lovers. Mqurice