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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: GST who wrote (147260)	10/7/2004 2:33:49 PM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

If there are millions that want us to leave, it is because they have given up on us being able to provide security for them so the better lives we promised them could indeed be realized. If we cannot do better on the security front, we should begin planning an exit strategy. If we feel we can, a political/military solution should be sought. This is the big question for either candidate after the election. mike

To: GST who wrote (147260)	10/7/2004 2:50:31 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The Bush admin was wrong about Iraq and you are wrong. There is no 'we' and 'they' in the minds of Iraqis. We went into Iraq with an American mentality of a people who are of one conscience. A nation of 'we the people' who would address the needs of another nation populated by a group of 'we the people.' Iraq is not a nation of common minded people. It is a region where loyalties are to family, tribe, religion, ethnicity, region, and finally a nation ... in that order. The first five trump each other and finally, the last one. We have seen what happens when any sub-group begins to organise ... we call it insurgency. The sub-grouping is fierce and when organized more powerful than the national agenda. The Bush bashers are equally wrong with the mentality of 'how would we feel if a foriegn entity invaded the US.' This mentality is more off base than the nation building mentality. The Iraqis have lived under the powerful rule of a conquerer for as long as they can remember. Each sub-group now imagines itself having the potential to rise up and conquer the others...if not, the question on their minds are which alternative should they throw their support behind. Since the invasion and occupation of Iraq the dynamics of the people and sub-groups have further changed due to the interests of the Al-Quaida organization who intends to fight to the death until they are able to establish a Global Caliphate. The Al-Mahdi Army has a similar agenda but is opposed to the Al-Quaida. There are at least six major sub-populations of Iraq that are organized to oppose each other. Within these there are hundreds that have loyalties that over rule the sub group organizations. If you believe it was wrong to enter Iraq then you must see that it would be even more wrong to walk away at this point. There is no 'we the people' in Iraq. There is only this volitile and fierce conglomeration of sub-groups. There was not a constitution or nation of people prior to the invasion. If we left the powers that would rise to rule would be the same kind of entities that attacked us on 9/11, only much more organized and with superpower resources at there beck and call. The options are known and the outcomes are predictable. Options: We can pull our forces out of Iraq and we will suffer very little in the short run for stepping a way from Iraq. Or, we can stay the course and continue to reap the costs. Outcomes: The costs for staying are a continuance, even an escalation in expenditures on the effort. We will suffer the approbrium of the world for our involvement. We will also be burdened with internal conflict as we struggle with the mission. We will be able to maintain some level of security over the nation while attempting to manage insurgencies as they arrise. We can continue to hope for a National Iraq that could enter the Global community and deal with us on the basis of international order. The costs of leaving, in the short run, are mostly levied against our position and status as a world leader. The Sunnis and the Shi'ites will likely wage civil war and end up splitting the country. The goals of the conquering insurgents who will rule in the south are identical to the conquering insurgents who will rule in the north. That is to establish a world wide Caliphate that will rule the Earth according to God's commandments. To do this these new, soon to become superpowers, will need to annihilate Western institutions, organizations, and powers. Starting with the USA as a primary target.