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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bruce L who wrote (147562)10/11/2004 9:25:02 AM
From: Win Smith  Respond to of 281500
 
I am amused by your "factual and logical" dismissal of Shinsecki. An account more consistant with conventional reality, from theatlantic.com :

The longer-term problem involved what would happen after Baghdad fell, as it inevitably would. This was distinctly an Army rather than a general military concern. "Where's the Air Force now?" an Army officer asked rhetorically last fall. "They're back on their bases—and they're better off, since they don't need to patrol the 'no-fly' zones [in northern and southern Iraq, which U.S. warplanes had patrolled since the end of the Gulf War]. The Navy's gone, and most of the Marines have been pulled back. It's the Army holding the sack of shit." A related concern involved what a long-term commitment to Iraq would do to the Army's "ops tempo," or pace of operations—especially if Reserve and National Guard members, who had no expectations of long-term foreign service when they signed up, were posted in Iraq for months or even years.

The military's fundamental argument for building up what Rumsfeld considered a wastefully large force is that it would be even more useful after Baghdad fell than during actual combat. The first few days or weeks after the fighting, in this view, were crucial in setting long-term expectations. Civilians would see that they could expect a rapid return to order, and would behave accordingly—or they would see the opposite. This was the "shock and awe" that really mattered, in the Army's view: the ability to make clear who was in charge. "Insights from successful occupations suggest that it is best to go in real heavy and then draw down fast," Conrad Crane, of the Army War College, told me. That is, a larger force would be necessary during and immediately after the war, but might mean a much smaller occupation presence six months later.

"We're in Baghdad, the regime is toppled—what's next?" Thomas White told me, recounting discussions before the war. One of the strongest advocates of a larger force was General Eric Shinseki, the Army Chief of Staff. White said, "Guys like Shinseki, who had been in Bosnia [where he supervised the NATO force], been in Kosovo, started running the numbers and said, 'Let's assume the world is linear.' For five million Bosnians we had two hundred thousand people to watch over them. Now we have twenty-five million Iraqis to worry about, spread out over a state the size of California. How many people is this going to take?" The heart of the Army's argument was that with too few soldiers, the United States would win the war only to be trapped in an untenable position during the occupation.

A note of personal rancor complicated these discussions, as it did many disagreements over postwar plans. In our interview Douglas Feith played this down—maintaining that press reports had exaggerated the degree of quarreling and division inside the Administration. These reports, he said, mainly reflected the experience of lower-level officials, who were embroiled in one specific policy area and "might find themselves pretty much always at odds with their counterparts from another agency." Higher up, where one might be "fighting with someone on one issue but allied with them on something else," relations were more collegial. Perhaps so. But there was no concealing the hostility within the Pentagon between most uniformed leaders, especially in the Army, and the civilians in OSD.

Donald Rumsfeld viewed Shinseki as a symbol of uncooperative, old-style thinking, and had in the past gone out of his way to humiliate him. In the spring of 2002, fourteen months before the scheduled end of Shinseki's term, Rumsfeld announced who his successor would be; such an announcement, which converts the incumbent into a lame duck, usually comes at the last minute. The action was one of several calculated insults.

From OSD's point of view, Shinseki and many of his colleagues were dragging their feet. From the Army's point of view, OSD was being reckless about the way it was committing troops and high-handed in disregarding the military's professional advice. One man who was then working in the Pentagon told me of walking down a hallway a few months before the war and seeing Army General John Abizaid standing outside a door. Abizaid, who after the war succeeded Tommy Franks as commander of the Central Command, or CENTCOM, was then the director of the Joint Staff—the highest uniformed position in the Pentagon apart from the Joint Chiefs. A planning meeting for Iraq operations was under way. OSD officials told him he could not take part.

The military-civilian difference finally turned on the question of which would be harder: winning the war or maintaining the peace. According to Thomas White and several others, OSD acted as if the war itself would pose the real challenge. As White put it, "The planning assumptions were that the people would realize they were liberated, they would be happy that we were there, so it would take a much smaller force to secure the peace than it did to win the war. The resistance would principally be the remnants of the Baath Party, but they would go away fairly rapidly. And, critically, if we didn't damage the infrastructure in our military operation, as we didn't, the restart of the country could be done fairly rapidly." The first assumption was clearly expressed by Cheney three days before the war began, in an exchange with Tim Russert on Meet the Press:

RUSSERT: If your analysis is not correct, and we're not treated as liberators but as conquerors, and the Iraqis begin to resist, particularly in Baghdad, do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly, and bloody battle with significant American casualties?

CHENEY: Well, I don't think it's likely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators ... The read we get on the people of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to get rid of Saddam Hussein and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that.

Through the 1990s Marine General Anthony Zinni, who preceded Tommy Franks as CENTCOM commander, had done war-gaming for a possible invasion of Iraq. His exercises involved a much larger U.S. force than the one that actually attacked last year. "They were very proud that they didn't have the kind of numbers my plan had called for," Zinni told me, referring to Rumsfeld and Cheney. "The reason we had those two extra divisions was the security situation. Revenge killings, crime, chaos—this was all foreseeable."

Thomas White agrees. Because of reasoning like Cheney's, "we went in with the minimum force to accomplish the military objectives, which was a straightforward task, never really in question," he told me. "And then we immediately found ourselves shorthanded in the aftermath. We sat there and watched people dismantle and run off with the country, basically."



To: Bruce L who wrote (147562)10/11/2004 9:45:58 AM
From: jttmab  Respond to of 281500
 
Reason 1. (Least important) He NOW is one of maybe 10-12 generals and admirals who openly support Kerry versus maybe 150+ who support Bush. There certainly is a legitimate suspicion that if he is partisan now, he was partisan then.

I'm glad you identified that as least important. You're suggesting that the President only accepts the advice of his partisan advisors, sic Wolfowitz. Shinshecki testified long before Kerry was ever even close to be the nominee. I think such a claim as you've given is totally ridiculous. Suggesting that any general would give "bad advice" because of partisanship is totally ridiculous.

(As an aside, jttmab, what did you think on Keith Feral's post? The one that Michael Watkins dismissed, but which I loved?)

There is no way that I'm going to go through Keith Feral's posts to find the post that Michael Watkins dismissed, but which you loved. Not even if it merely takes clicking the previous post until I find it. I won't know whether that tactic works until I do it. And I'd feel pretty stupid if I clicked back to find that's not one of the posts your talking about. You'll have to give me a link.

Reason 2. This general was wrong about the need for 300,000 troops. Wrong certainly about the number of troops to DEFEAT Saddam; wrong also IMHO about the number needed to occupy the country.

I'm not sure what Shinshecki said about the troops needed for the invasion. All the press I've seen and all the discussions that I've read have been about what Shinshecki said about the occupation.

DO YOU, jttmab, WANT TO HAVE A DISCUSSION REGARDING THE NUMBER OF TROOPS THAT WERE NEEDED FOR THE OCCUPATION?

You don't need to shout. IMO, we sent the number of troops we sent, because that's all we had available to send. More troops would have required a delay in starting the war, to either recall additional reserve/national guard or build a larger coalition [committment of more troops]. If Bush wasn't willing to wait for the UN Inspectors any longer, he certainly wasn't going to wait...period.

There were not sufficient troops available to protect anything in Baghdad other than the oil ministry. That in itself, shows that there were not sufficient troops for the occupation. It seems fairly obvious to me that the troop strength for the occupation was "planned" with the postulation of the best circumstances. They're throwing flowers, no significant civil disobedience, no significant looting, no significant resistance. There are known circumstances that occurred that went better than expected, e.g., minimal to no oil fires, possible food distribution problems.

It looks to me that where ever the plan accounted for negatives, things went better [implicitly making those troops resources more available]. Where ever the plan expected positives, they weren't materialized. I see no argument whatsoever that the right number of troops were available for an occupation other than if everything went exactly right and the coalition got every break possible. That's cr@p planning.

jttmab