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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: haqihana who wrote (38628)	10/14/2004 8:30:56 PM
From: Stan	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Agree about the medical community's greedy interest in all this. Naming alcoholism a disease also presents the abuser as a victim rather than as a responsible moral agent. Victims must be treated, moral agents must repent. No one prefers "repent" to "treatment." Yet, "repent" gives the person dignity by placing him in control of the situation and honors his God-given authority to govern himself. "Victims" imply they have no control and are being dominated by plant life.

To: haqihana who wrote (38628)	10/14/2004 10:34:38 PM
From: Jamey	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

You seem to have strayed from the belief system that you had over the years until it appears you are becoming a nihilist. The dictionary says that a disease is: A pathological condition of a body part, an organ, or a system resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms. The medical society and AA, including 15-20 million recovering alcoholics agree with the disease model because alcoholism meets all criteria in the progression of a disease. To call it that in no way releases the afflicted person from becoming a responsible member of society unless he wants to die when this "disease" reaches it's terminal late stages. I regret that you are abandoning these spiritual concepts that got you sober in the first place. As for me, I believe that science and spirituality can be in agreement as many well known scientists are now admitting that they believe that Jesus Christ did, in fact, exist and was the Son of God. For me to think entirely as you do would be to tempt the very source that released me from this dire compulsion that has split families and killed good men throughout history since man learned about alcohol. Of course, I do not need to remind you of the consequences of losing family and children because you have experienced that during the course of your disease. Just a friendly warning. Drawing away from the spiritual concepts and the admission of alcoholism as a hopeless condition that can only be arrested by daily spiritual growth is, imo, very dangerous ground to be on. Your circumstances that have placed you in this mindset can quickly change and have you drunker than a dog before you know what has happened to you. I wish you luck with your new found nihilistic beliefs but know from experience that any one who is "truly" an alcoholic is playing with fire to go off the program. James