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To: mishedlo who wrote (20071)10/17/2004 12:53:00 AM
From: Square_Dealings  Respond to of 110194
 
<what are they going to buy?>

oil, copper, grains, water, beef, wood,

land, U.S. companies, the Empire State Building, etc.

Its a transfer of wealth. When the cycle completes we work for them and we cant afford the things we need or want so we have to go back to work and be competitive others producing real goods instead of exchange traded funds and mortgage backed securities

<what happens to demand for furniture, grass seed, carpet, lumber, housing prices, roofing tiles, kitchen sinks, appliances, etc etc etc>

a large percentage of the world population has never had these things, do you think that demand will go away because US home prices go down?

If we have reached peak oil, peak copper, peak water, then the indedted are screwed.

Im putting you back on ignore again. I had you on for two years and just took you back off. But I remember now, I just dont like the tone of your posts in what could be a reasonable discussions. Im just throwing out ideas and challenging things because I dont think anyone knows what the future really holds.

good luck with yours

M



To: mishedlo who wrote (20071)10/17/2004 9:41:56 AM
From: russwinter  Read Replies (6) | Respond to of 110194
 
I believe you are asking Mike to describe a crack up boom or "flucht in die sachwerte" . Further, you are asking him to answer "what to do" in a crack up boom as if it's an easy answer. Clearly it isn't an easy answer as it will be extremely difficult and dislocating. I'm not sure how I will survive it, and I have better awareness of it, of about anybody. The only thing I do know is that if you choose to hold USD (in Old Maid Cards like bonds) in the belief that you will have even greater purchasing power, you will be one of the first to be quickly wiped out. So rather than answer you directly, let me direct you to Von Mises' description of the evolution of crack up boom behavior, and then ask you to answer your own question? I believe this is a vital and essential read for you and everybody else, in term of understanding this aspect of our debate. In fact, if you just skip this unaddressed, I think you're doing us a disserve in asking Mike (or me) to respond to your line of questioning.

But if once public opinion is convinced that the increase in the quantity of money will continue and never come to an end, and that consequently the prices of all commodities and services will not cease to rise, everybody becomes eager to buy as much as possible and to restrict his cash holding to a minimum size. For under these circumstances the regular costs incurred by holding cash are increased by the losses caused by the progressive fall in purchasing power. The advantages of holding cash must be paid for by sacrifices which are deemed unreasonably burdensome. This phenomenon was, in the great European inflations of the 'twenties, called flight into real goods (Flucht in die Sachwerte) or crack-up boom (Katastrophenhausse). The mathematical economists are at a loss to comprehend the causal relation between the increase in the quantity of money and what they call "velocity of circulation."

The characteristic mark of this phenomenon is that the increase in the quantity of money causes a fall in the demand for money. The tendency toward a fall in purchasing power as generated by the increased supply of money is intensified by the general propensity to restrict cash holdings which it brings about. Eventually a point is reached where the prices at which people would be prepared to part with "real" goods discount to such an extent the expected progress in the fall of purchasing power that nobody has a sufficient amount of cash at hand to pay them. The monetary system breaks down; all transactions in the money concerned cease; a panic makes its purchasing power vanish altogether. People return either to barter or to the use of another kind of money.

The course of a progressing inflation is this: At the beginning the inflow of additional money makes the prices of some commodities and services rise; other prices rise later. The price rise affects the various commodities and services, as has been shown, at different dates and to a different extent.

This first stage of the inflationary process may last for many years. While it lasts, the prices of many goods and services are not yet adjusted to the altered money relation. There are still people in the [p. 428] country who have not yet become aware of the fact that they are confronted with a price revolution which will finally result in a considerable rise of all prices, although the extent of this rise will not be the same in the various commodities and services. These people still believe that prices one day will drop. Waiting for this day, they restrict their purchases and concomitantly increase their cash holdings. As long as such ideas are still held by public opinion, it is not yet too late for the government to abandon its inflationary policy.

But then finally the masses wake up. They become suddenly aware of the fact that inflation is a deliberate policy and will go on endlessly. A breakdown occurs. The crack-up boom appears. Everybody is anxious to swap his money against "real" goods, no matter whether he needs them or not, no matter how much money he has to pay for them. Within a very short time, within a few weeks or even days, the things which were used as money are no longer used as media of exchange. They become scrap paper. Nobody wants to give away anything against them.


It was this that happened with the Continental currency in America in 1781, with the French mandats territoriaux in 1796, and with the German Mark in 1923. It will happen again whenever the same conditions appear. If a thing has to be used as a medium of exchange, public opinion must not believe that the quantity of this thing will increase beyond all bounds.


mises.org



To: mishedlo who wrote (20071)10/18/2004 8:05:18 PM
From: glenn_a  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 110194
 
Mish.

Just want to say I appreciate the tough thinking both you and Russ are necessitating here. Umm, my head hurts a bit, but I think that's a good thing. (smile)

You stated:

[Michael Finsterwald] but the Fed doesn't have to hike for rates to go up. As the dollar falls foreigners would most likely stop buying or start selling treasuries and converting to something else ... [Mish] OK assuming you are correct pray tell exactly what are they going to buy? Euros? Yen?

If anyone is holding an asset that is in excess supply, why would they not try to exchange this asset for one that was relatively dear? That could be debt denominated in another currency. Or it could be commodities that are destined to continue to rise in prise as a result of easy monetary policies.

It seems to me that the whole point is that Central Banks "in the long run" will act like any other rationale economic actor - they will seek to hold assets that are dear, and sell those that are in excess supply (in the short run, I suppose banks like any other supplier might engage in questionable vendor financing ;) ).

If the U.S. Fed continues to conduct a policy that sees its currency and debt in excess supply, then Central Banks "over the long-term" will want to trade that asset in for one that is set to appreciate vis-a-vis the US$ and US debt.

No?

You later commented:

The YEN? Are you seriously proposing Japan would stand for that or do it themselves? So... You tell me just what are they going to do with all those US$ if they chose to sell them? In fact, how much will it cost them if there is a mass exodus?

If the Japanese feel US Treasuries are on a sustained trend of losing their value, and they are able to trade those holdings in for assets that will better retain their value (or even appreciate in value), then why wouldn't the Japanese sell. I mean, what would be the point of holding on to an asset that is destined to continually decline in value?

With regards to the economic impact of a higher yen or a higher Euro, well the impact of currency valuation would obviously be a concern to domestic industry and manufacturers. But if the U.S. is set to inflate its money supply at a greater rate than its trading partners, then it all washes out in the end, no? I mean, there's no reason we couldn't see the Euro at 2 if the world was faced with an avalanche of US$.

BTW, I don't think this is a likely scenario because I believe U.S. policy will eventually normalize its interest rate structure. The costs of not doing so are simply to grave. But if they don't, sure hyperinflation is a very real policy response option. I mean, it "could" happen. It "has" happened.

By the way Mish, if you are able to contribute your thoughts to a previous post I addressed to you (link provided below), I would really appreciate your comments:

Message 20651958

Thanks again for all your efforts Mish.

Glenn