SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Gold/Mining/Energy : Precious and Base Metal Investing -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Ken Reidy who wrote (31719)10/23/2004 6:49:17 AM
From: Square_Dealings  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39344
 
I agree the Kaplan piece re-hashes the "commercials are always right" theory that has prevailed for 20 years in the gold market.

Of course the commercials will use everything they have to contain the gold price because to have it get away would mean the value of the debt outstanding against gold would increase and it would encourage a flight of capital away from the "pre-approved" areas of stocks and bonds.

Many people are missing the fact that the US is not the central driver of commodities prices now. The demand and supply imbalances are being generated from Asia. If Asia and the rest of the world decides to diversify to gold the commercials in the U.S. will be run over and that is what I expect to happen at this juncture.

Just as OPEC no longer can control the oil market, COMEX will eventually be unable to control metals prices.

The current over-extended record credit position of U.S. banks may change the dynamics of the gold market and status quo of the commercials ability to control it "as usual".

As for the 80% bullish percent in precious metals he has to be pulling this one out of his rear. Most experienced metals traders remain skeptical and/or concerned as observed here on SI over the past couple months.

M



To: Ken Reidy who wrote (31719)10/23/2004 8:53:18 AM
From: tyc:>  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39344
 
You say that the Commercials "create massive volatilities" by adding to losing positions. But surely to add to short positions as market prices rise, tends to reduce volatility rather than add to it. It is the momentum traders who add to long positions as prices rise - the Jesse Livermores - who create massive volatilities.

Perhaps, as I believe, the commercials are largely "hedgers". I believe that "bankers" are not looking for speculative profits but a steady stream of profits to satisfy the expectations of their patrons. There is a lot of gold held somewhere in this world; perhaps it is being hedged by short futures. BWDIK.



To: Ken Reidy who wrote (31719)10/23/2004 1:50:41 PM
From: seventh_son  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39344
 
The pattern of behaviour with the commercials is pretty obvious. They think that they have the speculative longs figured out, and can crush them by the shear weight of their resources to perpetually short gold. It's easy to understand why they might think this, when central banks stand ready to lease gold to them at practically 0% interest. But what happens if one of these times, someone with similarly deep pockets -- say an Asian central bank with hundreds of billions of dollars of foreign reserves -- China, or even Russia, India or Japan -- decides to enter the game and matches the commercial shorts ounce per ounce with purchases of their own until the commercials have effectively subsidized for them a massive purchase of gold, just at a time that the fundamentals support an explosively higher price? To go further, what if a global financial crisis then ensues, one that could even be easily triggered by the same central bank dumping US dollars or bonds at a critical point, and then the global demand for gold REALLY takes off, taking the price of gold up in an updraft that even all the resources of the commercials and western central banks couldn't contain? Possible?

Whenever someone is artificially suppressing market prices, they have to face the eventuality that someone with deep pockets can clean up at their expense. But is the world of gold supply and demand foggy enough for someone like a foreign central bank to secretly accumulate vast amounts of gold without the word getting out to everyone? I don't know enough about the gold market to say, but if one looks at the Chinese government allowing banks to sell gold to private citizens, it would be easy for them have a company or companies acting as their agents to secretly buy up gold for them ostensibly with the purpose of selling to Chinese citizens. There might be many other possibilities. Dealings in the world of gold are very murky...



To: Ken Reidy who wrote (31719)10/23/2004 8:18:23 PM
From: The Vet  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 39344
 
A great post Ken, with good points. If I might add my 2 cents worth, I do not believe that the US market has control of both the supply or demand of any common basic commodity, but because of the USD hegemony they do have control of the prices!

The commercials can sell short regardless of the supply/demand fundamentals simply because they are better funded and the rules of the paper markets which require the longs to declare their intention to take delivery AND put up the full amount of the cash to do so BEFORE the shorts have to actually produce the commodity they have sold.

The commercials know full well that they have sold much more than they could possibly deliver, but they also know that the specs have bought much more than they can afford buy and take delivery. Net result, the party who has to show their hand first is forced to fold, and that party is always the one with the long position. COMEX rules make it so, so once the volume of the open interest becomes higher than the players can afford then the deck is always stacked in favour of the shorts.

This cycle can only be broken when shortages become so acute that demand overwhelms the shorts. This is happening in oil right now and to copper to a lesser extent.

Regardless, short raids like the recent one in copper by the shorts can still overwhelm the immediate liquidity of the longs and their ability to absorb "paper" product and allow the shorts to make a killing with a sharp drop in price. Copper is the best recent example where they managed a very profitable short attack despite fundamental supply/demand opposition.