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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Greg or e who wrote (18506)10/27/2004 12:26:43 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
"There can only be natural rights if there is natural Law"

The context of my comment was clear, and if you do not understand it, I will make it clearer still. I have told you in the past that "Natural Law" as a concept involves various competing ideas from many sources down through the centuries. When I say that justice is a "natural right", I mean it is a right which derives validity from the nature of human beings. As rational beings we have reasoned concepts of what is and is not fair. My point is that (as I said) one does not need to EARN justice. Although all cultures and people differ as to what fair treatment is....there is a rational consensus everywhere that one does not "earn" the right to be treated fairly. As to what IS considered fair...well that is all relative. But we have divorce courts, judges, and armies to sort all that out...

"What's phony about it"

Treatment which punishes people for freedom of religion...for not grovelling before a particular creature--especially when the purported words, deeds, and values of that creature offend all that is good and decent in rational and compassionate people--THAT is a phony justice.

"You do the crime you pay the time"

I've told you a thousand times. It is not a crime to be born into a culture, a color, a religion, or a nationality. So murdering all those tribes in the bible and then torturing them in Hell for eternity was not punishing any crime. It WAS the crime. Murdering all those parents and then raping their virgin daughters was not punishment for crime. It WAS the crime. Protecting Lot for offering his daughter for gang rape WAS the crime. And on and on and on. You just don't get it. Do you have no innate sense of what fair treatment entails??

"You are in for a big shock at some point and you will have to admit that God's judgment is accurate and just"

Maybe you ought to read the bible with your brain open for once. Are you afraid to understand what you are reading? Does the dung and the rape and the absurdities and the cruelties just pass through a vacuum?

"I can't possibly respond to the avalanche of nonsense that Dan Barker rattles off"

I know you can't--because it is all quoted scripture! And you cannot defend the inanities and insanities of scripture anymore than you can defend Jesus being a "colt" thief! LOL!

In 1870 He would have been hanged!

19:29
And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,

19:30
Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.

19:31
And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.

19:32
And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.

19:33
And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?

19:34
And they said, The Lord hath need of him.

19:35
And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

19:36
And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way


AND WHAT IS ALL THIS CRAP ABOUT SPREADING THEIR CLOTHES IN THE WAY! WHAT A HOOT!



To: Greg or e who wrote (18506)10/27/2004 12:46:41 PM
From: Solon  Respond to of 28931
 
Are there MONSTERS under the bed, Greg or e??!!!

"Everyone Is An AtheistOn this planet, there exist literally thousands of religions/cults, each with its own particular god/s, each reveling in the certainty that they alone have it right, and each bewildered by the failure of all the others to recognize the obvious truth. Some of these religions, the large powerful proselytizing religions, are a little more adamant about the truth than others. Each claims to be the "One True Religion" (OTR) and all share a high level of disdain for atheism. What seems lost on them is that in order to maintain their belief in the local OTR, they necessarily practice a rigorous and mandatory style of selective atheism. They just don't realize that they are doing it.

Christians make much of the fact that they are the largest religion on the planet. That is true only if you disregard all the scriptural differences which make every splinter cult certain that all the others are not true christians and are going straight to hell where they deserve to burn in torment forever for their inaccuracies. (Don't believe me? - ask a baptist where a catholic is going to spend eternity. What is funny is that all these folks claim that their church, and only their church, teaches straight from the bible without any fancy "interpretation".) Anyway, for the sake of this argument, lets disregard all the disparaties and scripture-based infighting and call all the xian cults a single OTR. What seems to escape them is that, even though they are the largest religion on the planet, (and many of them take this as clear indication that they are the OTR), there are still about 75% of the people on this planet who clearly recognize that xianity is a false religion.

So, every religion shares the same myopia regarding their own deity. Every religion is the one true religion and all other religions are false. Every religions god is true while all the others are pretenders. It is childishly obvious to any devout christian - or muslim - that the thousands of gods of all the competing superstitious cults are patently false. You can do the math. I come up with exactly ZERO actual existing deities.

I am an Atheist ...






By definition, Atheism means only that I have no belief in gods. To say the least, I find the stories about gods to be unconvincing. To say it another way, I find the ancient fables to be exactly as convincing as the stories about Santa Claus or Superman. As a thinking adult, I am under no obligation to believe what reason and experience show me to be false.
We are all born atheists, without religious belief, without the concept of Reason, and without the ability to apply skepticism, but possessing a brain which soaks up information like a sponge, even if that information is erroneous. It is during this early, pliable phase when parents and society begin to pummel young, uncritical, defenseless minds with stories of the locally popular deities, omnipotent powers, eternal life, and the dire consequences that will accompany disbelief. With these stories comes a frightening prohibition against any form of skepticism, which inflicts permanent disability upon the ability to apply Reason. More than merely frightening, all deistic religions cap off their indoctrination by making it dangerous, even lethal, to ask simple, reasonable questions about the most fundamental elements of their faith. Questions and doubt are mental crimes and grievous insults to the supreme creator of the curious mind. Deistic religions demand immunity from examination. By crushing all inquiry, the religions have quieted opposition and rendered huge swaths of civilization permanently incapable of questioning the answers they have been given – answers without questions.

Fortunately, it does not work on everyone, and despite the best efforts of the Southern Baptists, It did not work on me. Somehow I managed to retain my natural curiosity and, over time, I developed a healthy skepticism and an inability to blindly accept the ancient god stories without a more coherent set of explanations than was available in an ancient holy book. I slowly began to realize that what they were selling just wasn’t true.

I did not arrive at this position lightly. I was raised in the church and every attempt was made to set my mind with Christian dogma. I read my bible and went regularly to services and church activities. I tried real hard for awhile to get a sense of “God”, but I sensed only absence. But as my skepticism grew, I couldn’t help but notice that the stories I was told were strikingly close to the old stories of the Greek and Norse gods, differing only in the details, not in credibility. The ancient and various tales – no more reliable or believable than campfire stories, really - about deities creating the Universe were such obvious mythology that they were quickly abandoned in favor of a more Scientific and rational examination. Reason and Science, the mechanisms for the acquisition and validation of knowledge, won out for the simple reason that they were actually capable of supplying answers.

The disparity between the ancient fables and the realities of the Universe was most obvious when contrasting the biblical genesis tale against the discoveries about origins provided by the study of Cosmology. On origins, either cosmic or Human, the bible answered correctly in this area not once and corresponded to reality not at all. Instead, I turned to sources on astronomy and cosmology, and supplemented over time with evolution, quantum physics, history, sociology, and psychology. All these subjects taken together mesh into a coherent and rational explanation for the workings of the Universe. They also provide some perspective regarding the place of Humans in that Universe.

A comprehensive explanation is not simple and cannot be reduced to verse-sized sound bites. It could never have been understood or discovered by uneducated, illiterate and credulous Humans thousands of years ago. Nor is it palatable to those who cling to the old stories. The explanations are complex, far-ranging, and inter-related. The explanations require thought and they require study; they require process and must stand up to rigorous examination. The explanations are in no way augmented by the insertion of magical deities. Observed, and validated facts diverged wildly from the guesswork of the ancients.

In the end, religion made no sense to me. The gap between what the church taught and what reality showed could not be closed. I finally accepted that I was a natural-born, fully realized Atheist.

In short, I am utterly convinced, that all the stories about all the thousands of gods ever proposed by Humans are concoctions based on fear and wishful thinking, and are not connected to objective reality. I am as certain that there are no gods as I am that there are no unicorns, or leprachauns, or monsters under the bed.

I can justify saying that these things do not exist. To make such a statement will cause logical purists some heartburn due to the fact that it is never possible to prove a negative. But even the purists know that it is OK to stop searching for Unicorns.



... and so are you.
Now, the point of that whole semi-biographical roundabout was so that I can show that you are also an Atheist. All adamantly religious people are hard, committed Atheists. Just not very good ones.
Just like myself, members of every religion, commonly claiming to be the One True Religion, hold every other religion, also commonly claiming to be the One True Religion, and held by its practitioners to be absolutely true, to be utterly false. If you do the math on that you will see that the vast majority of people on this planet recognize your religion, whatever it may be, as pure fantasy.

The atheism of the religious is not done after a careful weighing of the evidence. Nor is it done after a thorough ‘compare and contrast’ of the tenets of your religion against what is known about the workings of the Universe. True to the early indoctrination of your own religion, you just plain old don’t and won’t believe in the gods of the other religions. To you, just as they are to me, they are all obviously false and unworthy of further consideration. Proof is unnecessary and a waste of time as you summarily dismiss several thousand alleged gods without any thought whatsoever.

When you examine your attitudes about all the other religions, you can understand exactly my attitude towards all those religions. Your view of all those religions varies from mine not at all. In the case of each and every one of those alleged deities you are experiencing and practicing pure, hard Atheism.

Of all the thousands of gods that people have believed in, prayed to, and entrusted their wellbeing to, you retain belief, not surprisingly, only in your locally popular deity. When you do the math on that, you will see that, except for your small localized blind spot, you are every bit the Atheist I am. The only difference is that my Atheism also applies to your local religion, while you persist in an inexplicable, irrational, and indefensible breach of consistency.



A final word
Is there a point to all this? Yes. There is an inherent contradiction built into every fundamentalist religion – open contempt for Atheists while practicing near universal Atheism towards all other religions. Those who are bent to religion frequently express incomprehension as to how an Atheist could not see the “truth” of the existence of their locally popular deity. Easy. Look to yourself - you do it all the time. You are an Atheist. Welcome to my world."

Rick Wingrove 2004