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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: SBHX who wrote (149978)	10/30/2004 2:57:11 PM
From: michael97123	Respond to of 281500

Amen 1 Pacifism is an ideology well before its time and in a time of war, it is perhaps the most dangerous ideology of all. Hug the Taliban, indeed. mike

To: SBHX who wrote (149978)	10/30/2004 4:40:54 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

<your suggestions have no practical use> That's the way you, (and I'll admit, the clear majority of Americans) see things, because you equate "not killing" with "doing nothing". In fact, there are a broad range of measures which could be taken, and would be far more effective than killing. But Americans dismiss them out of hand, and ridicule them as wimpy/sissy/grouphug/pacifist. We dismiss them, because we are a nation with a deeply violent culture, that systematically rejects (in practice, although we mouth the slogans constantly) everything Christ said. We simply don't know any other way to respond, than EyeForAnEye (or 10 eyes, or 100...). The rejection of peace is so profound, I'm afraid the Crusaders will stay in charge, and keep ramping up the cycle of violence, until both sides are using nuclear weapons. Maybe then, maybe, we'll start asking ourselves, "Why isn't this working? Why, no matter how many we kill, are there still more enemies? Why aren't we safe yet?" As a nation, we have conducted ourselves, so huge numbers of people hate us, and wish to harm us. Look at any public opinion poll, of any nation (other than the U.S. or Israel). We have far fewer friends today, and far more enemies, than on 9/11. The Jihadists are winning, because of our counter-productive methods. City by city, block by block, our enemies are re-conquering Iraq and Afghanistan, enlarging the no-go areas for our troops. Iran (and N. Korea), and eventually every Muslim nation, will have nukes, and the American militarist's methods have totally failed at stopping it. In Saudi Arabia, Westerners are being forced to live in fortified compounds; soon, it won't be safe for any Westerners to be in any Muslim nation, without an escort of armoured vehicles. So, we, as a nation, are building a prison for ourselves. At great expense, we surround ourselves with walls (physical and mental). We huddle fearfully behind these walls, occasionally lashing out randomly at the Others outside. The Israelization of America. This is where the "realists" are taking us. Blueprint for victory: Message 18801778

To: SBHX who wrote (149978)	10/30/2004 5:03:31 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Respond to of 281500

<Jimmy Carter.....gave us the rise of Iran : the hostage crisis and rise of the first modern Islamic Theocracy> You forget all inconvenient history. This allows a belief that all anti-American actions by foreigners (from the Iran Revolution to 9/11) happened de novo, simply because "they hate us". In fact, if you look honestly at history, without editing out eveything that isn't self-serving, you'll find: The roots of the Iranian Revolution were in 1954, when the CIA ousted a democratically elected government, in favor of the thug preferred by American business interests. If Carter's principles had governed our foreign policy re Iran from 1954 on, there would have been no Shah, no Iranian Revolution, no hostage crisis. Iran would probably have been a secular democracy for the last 50 years. But Exxon's profits would have been smaller, so "the blood-dimmed tide was loosed."

To: SBHX who wrote (149978)	10/30/2004 5:10:08 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

One more bit of honest history: You said, "Ronald Reagan's warhawk strategy gave the fall of the Berlin Wall, the dissolution of the Soviet Union." Self-serving nonsense. Millions of brave East Germans and Poles and Slovaks and Russians came out into the streets and said, "You can have our lives, but not our obediance." Millions of people faced the tanks with empty hands. They used the tactics of Gandhi. That's what beat the Communists. Reagan had nothing to do with it; he was safely thousands of miles away. You're claiming a victory that isn't yours. You're furthering a Myth, The Myth of Redemptive Violence.