SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: redfish who wrote (66828)11/10/2004 2:53:53 PM
From: jlallen  Respond to of 89467
 
I disagree with his thesis. I think the reason the right uses the media more effectively is that they are willing to lie or distort the truth more than the dems

Rathergate?
Missing explosives?
GWB wants a draft?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



To: redfish who wrote (66828)11/10/2004 4:10:10 PM
From: Sully-  Respond to of 89467
 
"I disagree with his thesis. I think the reason the right uses the media more effectively is that they are willing to lie or distort the truth more than the dems"

Ya right. Here's a starter kit. See if you can top it.

Bush was AWOL.

Dan Rather's forged documents.

800 different lies about the Patriot Act.

Bush is squelching free speech.

ABC News MEMO - Help Kerry - Bash Bush!

Bush = Hitler.

One million disenfranchised black voters in Florida.

Bush stole the election (both of them).

The Bush Admin claimed Iraq was directly tied to 9/11.

Saddam had no ties to terrorists.

"imminent threat"

"Bush lied" us into war.

"preemptive war"

"Imperialist war"

No blood for oil.

Bush's go it alone policy in Iraq.

"unilateral war"

"Illegal war".

Sanctions were working, Saddam was boxed in.

Iraq was always about "stockpiles" of WMD's & absolutely nothing else.

Baghdad would be equal to Stalingrad.

"quagmire"

"bogged down"

Bush took resources away from the hunt for OBL to fight in Iraq.

Bush "outsourced" the hunt for OBL.

Bush knew about 9/11 in advance.

Bush allowed the Bin Laden family to fly out of the US before flights resumed.

100,000 innocent civilians killed in Iraq since we invaded.

Missing explosives in Al Qaqaa.

Anything Michael Moore said.

John Kerry - "Don't worry man. We're going to keep pounding.
We're just beginning to fight here. These guys, er, these
guys are the most crooked, you know, lying group of people
I've ever seen."

''On March 19, 2004, President Bush asked, 'Who would
prefer that Saddam's torture chambers still be open?'
Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers
reopened under new management - US management.''
Ted Kennedy

No less than Al Gore has practically accused the president
of treason. In a Feb. 8 speech in Tennessee, Gore went on
an alarming rant, performed almost in an arr-matey pirate
voice. "He betrayed this country!" Gore bellowed. "He
played on our fears. He took America on an ill-conceived
foreign adventure dangerous to our troops, an adventure
preordained and planned before 9/11 ever took place."

"This [the war in Iraq] was made up in Texas.... This whole thing was a fraud." -- Sen. Edward Kennedy

"George Bush, a man who was AWOL.... " -- Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe

Former Democratic Sen. Max Cleland, a close friend and supporter of presidential candidate John Kerry, today launched into a blistering attack against President Bush.

In a conference call with reporters, Cleland said the president went to war in Iraq “because he concluded that his daddy was a failed president” for not having removed Saddam Hussein from power after the first Gulf War. Therefore, Cleland explained, the younger Bush decided to “be Mr. Macho Man” by removing Saddam himself.

Cleland also said the president “flat-out lied” when he asked Congress to authorize war in Iraq. “He told us four things,” Cleland said, listing Bush’s claims of Iraq weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons programs, attempts to acquire yellowcake uranium in Africa, and ties to al Qaeda. “All of that was a pack of lies,” Cleland said.

Both Cleland and Kerry voted to authorize the war.....

Senator Fritz Hollings penned an op-ed
for a South Carolina newspaper charging that the war in
Iraq was fought for Israel, and to win Jewish votes for
the Bush administration, and blaming three Jews for
pushing us to war: .......

....Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA) said, "What has not ended is resolution and determination of members of the U.S. Senate to continue to resist any Neanderthal that is nominated by this president of the United States for any court."....

Al Gore delivered a blistering denunciation Wednesday of the Bush administration's "twisted values and atrocious policies" in Iraq and demanded the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice and CIA director George Tenet.

Raising his voice to a yell in a speech at New York University, Gore said: "How dare they subject us to such dishonor and disgrace! How dare they drag the good name of the United States of America through the mud of Saddam Hussein's torture prison!" ......

NAACP Chairman: "Republicans = The Taliban for Black Folks"

"Their idea of equal rights is the American flag and the Confederate swastika flying side by side. They've written a new constitution for Iraq and ignore the Constitution here at home. They draw their most rabid supporters from the Taliban wing of American politics. Now they want to write bigotry back into the Constitution...The passage of these two laws in 1964 and 1965 [Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act] marked the beginning of the dependence of the Republican Party on the politics of racial division to win elections and gain power. By playing the race card in election after election, they've appealed to that dark underside of American culture, to that minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality. They preach racial neutrality and they practice racial division....We have a president who talks like a populist and governs for the privileged. We were promised compassionate conservatism; instead, we got crummy capitalism."....

Yesterday a gathering of liberal activists cheered George Soros' assertion that the prison abuse scandal was the equivalent of the attacks of 9/11, and that the war in Iraq had turned the United States into the the equivalent of the perpetrators of those attacks....

The Democrats' new "firebrand" -- Al Gore -- spoke in Tacoma, Wash., on Friday night. Among other criticisms of the Bush Administration came these lines about Abu Ghraib: "Those policies came out of the White House and no matter the wrongdoing of individual troops, they were ordered to wade into a moral cesspool and given ambiguous, conflicting instructions and then praised for doing things they shouldn't have been doing. I believe the abuse of those prisoners came directly from the abuse of the truth in the run-up to the war." ....

U.N. ambassadors from several nations are disputing assertions by Sen. John Kerry that he met for hours with all members of the U.N. Security Council just a week before voting in October 2002 to authorize the use of force in Iraq.....

Kerry Lies But AP Calls It "Going Beyond Known Fact"



To: redfish who wrote (66828)11/11/2004 10:36:05 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
The Gettables
_______________________

Democrats locked in the values debate need to remember an important distinction.

By Michael Tomasky
The American Prospect
Web Exclusive: 11.08.04
prospect.org

The great values debate has commenced.

Four camps have emerged thus far. There's the camp that says, essentially, change the subject -- Democrats have to win back values voters by fighting the morals argument with economic populism. Second, there's the triangulation camp, which says Democrats have to win them back by closing the "culture gap," which would presumably entail taking a sterner line against, for example, gay marriage. Third, there's a hybrid camp, arguing that Democrats have to reach values voters by finding a way to couch populist messages in moral rhetoric. Finally, there's the values-were-overblown-by-the-media camp. All have a point, in their own way, but all have made the same mistake of assuming that values voters are monolithic.

Before Democrats even start having this argument in earnest, they need to define its terms and be clear on a very important point. Values voters are not monolithic. They are, to coin a word, duolithic. There's the religious right, and then there are voters who are religious. They are not the same thing. The former are not persuadable; they want to extinguish modernity, they privilege mystical belief over physical evidence, and they will never vote Democratic. They are about a quarter of the population, and there's a similar quarter of the population who will never vote Republican, so they can at least be fought (and fighting is the proper concept with respect to this cohort) to a draw.

But somewhere in the remaining 50 percent are voters who are deeply religious but not in any way members of the religious right. They can have qualms about gay marriage without wanting to go back to Victorian morality. They can find themselves disturbed by the way Democratic politicians talk about abortion without wanting all women to be housewives. (Indeed, they can be disturbed by the rhetoric while still supporting the notion that abortion should remain an option.) These voters are the ones Democrats must try to reach.

They are not in opposition to every intellectual development since Freud. They're not interested in building a Christian nation and in fact are likely to be quite against that idea. But they go to church (maybe temple, but usually church), and faith is important to them, so they need some signal from the Democratic Party that it has respect for that aspect of their lives.

We have crossed, with this election, an important historical marker. The reelection of a president such as George W. Bush for the reasons the exit polls tell us he evidently won is a culminating event in the political retreat of modernity, a condition of existence whose fundamental tenet was the triumph of scientific skepticism over what used to be called "blind" faith. (Yes, lots of scholars of modernity would offer other fundamental tenets, but that's mine.) Modernity's golden age lasted about a century (a century that included, tragically, the 12-year interregnum during which modernity had to marshal its forces to defeat fascism). It coincided -- and not, as it were, coincidentally -- with the age of liberal consensus. It's not for nothing that I was raised by two good liberal parents who told me that religion and politics don't mix. Back then, they didn't, and they didn't because modernity and liberalism had taught people that they didn't, and the consensus held firm for the most part from the Scopes trial until the age of Reagan.

The age of skepticism has won a few and lost a few since Reagan's time. But let's face it: That age is now, in this country, dead. Today, religion and politics do mix. And they will keep mixing for the foreseeable future.

This does not mean that Democrats and liberalism should placate the Christian right or willingly succumb to Christian Nation. They should not. But it does mean that Democrats and liberals should work much harder to understand and win over the voters of the religious center. The Democratic Party should invest money in talking to -- not polling or focus-grouping; talking to -- these voters, learning the true extent to which they feel alienated from the party, finding out how they think about their religious and political selves, how they weigh their own interpretations of the Scriptures with regard to gay rights on the one hand and helping people in poverty on the other. And liberal intellectuals -- who do tend to be secular, myself admittedly included, and who do sometimes exhibit contempt for religion, myself (I hope) very much not included -- need to understand clearly that the religious right is hardly speaking for every religious person. And we need to understand that we're beyond the point in history when the old arguments will be persuasive.

The religious right has opened up a new battlefield, and, like it or not, we have to play on it. And the way to begin is by understanding clearly the difference between religious extremists and religious people.
__________________________________

Michael Tomasky is executive editor of The American Prospect.