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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Fangorn who wrote (151754)	11/16/2004 2:02:37 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>> Islam teaches that Islam is the only way and that those who will not submit must be destroyed. This has been fact since Mohammed's time and is fact today. Recognizing that fact may seem like bigotry to you but it remains a fact no matter how deep in the sand you stick your head. << LOL! I did not realize you were also an Islamic scholar and a historian! Only a few minutes ago you were saying that only some Muslims want to harm US and now you are saying that Islam teaches intolerance and conversion by the sword and this has always been the case through out all times (and presumably shall always be the case). Of course I am sure that you see yourself as a "realist" instead of blinded by prejudice. But if you are not prejudiced, do share with us your personal experiences with Muslim societies? How many Muslim friends do you have? Are they all Arabs (a minority of Muslims) or do you have Indonesian and Malaysian Muslim friends as well? Have you read Koran or studied the history of Islam? Or did you choose to form your opinion based on works of other bigots? You remind me of those who'd judge the US based on Jerry Springer shows.

To: Fangorn who wrote (151754)	11/16/2004 2:48:57 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

"Islam teaches that Islam is the only way and that those who will not submit must be destroyed. This has been fact since Mohammed's time and is fact today. Recognizing that fact may seem like bigotry to you but it remains a fact no matter how deep in the sand you stick your head." I find two things interesting about this passage. 1) This is a common mainstream interpretation of Islam by non-Muslims. 2) I can't find a single moderate Muslim who would agree with any of this. There are over a billion in the world today, so feel free to do your own survey. If not a single one would agree with this how do you get off claiming that it is what Islam teaches and that your statement is not bigotry against a people who are not represented by your hateful comment?

To: Fangorn who wrote (151754)	11/16/2004 3:45:31 PM
From: Michael Watkins	Respond to of 281500

> Islam teaches that Islam is the only way and that those who will not submit must be destroyed. < Hardly. You need to get in touch with the modern face of Islam since clearly your interpration is based only on one group of followers of that religion, not the whole. I shouldn't have to point out, but will, that you can make the very same comment about Christianity, particularly those who got the original Crusades rolling. Some would argue that the Crusades never stopped... or that they are just getting restarted. I'm not sure I can consider that thinking wrong.

To: Fangorn who wrote (151754)	11/17/2004 5:23:24 AM
From: Neocon	Respond to of 281500

Even in the case of Christianity and Judaism, accommodations were necessary to acquiesce to secularization. In the case of Judaism, the revival of the original Temple oriented scheme was put off until the coming of the Messiah, so that Old Testament political norms no longer applied to the faithful. Since the coming of the Messiah was widely interpreted as a miraculous event, rather than an ordinary political event, eventually Judaism became politically quiescent. Even Zionism is primarily a secular construct. Christianity for a long time had a tension between the secular and religious authorities, but the Reformation and the scandal of schism leading to bloodletting finally caused repulsion, and a gradual withdrawal of aggressive clericalism, so that, by the 19th century, most Western countries were relatively tolerant, and on their way to adopting the standard of freedom of conscience. Islam itself can evolve, as Judaism and Christianity did. However, it is harder for the fundamentalist version to do so. Some degree of "historicization" is necessary, to render militant Islam a thing of the past.