SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bilow who wrote (152726)11/27/2004 7:45:19 AM
From: skinowski  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
..the people of Iraq will have to make their own discoveries about who runs their country better. They've already tried Saddam, and they didn't like secular dictators. Maybe after they've experimented a bit...

I don't think that's the way power works, Carl.

America was established by enlightened people who decided to experiment running the government by limiting their own power, rather then by trying to make it greater ad infinitum. It worked. The nation is very successful.

But Iraqis did not "try" Saddam. They were rather "tried" BY Saddam. Power creates its own momentum. Working for the dictator allowed you to support your family, and made you a "respectable" member of the society. Dissenting would get you and your family killed, sometimes even by the great leader personally. For most people that's a very easy choice. And those who make the wrong choice, get destroyed, and are no longer an issue. Life goes on.

The part of the world which is now Iraq has been populated for millennia. They knew good times, and bad times, but accountable government was never one of the things they had a chance to "try".

There are always sharp differences during a war - otherwise, there would be no war - and uncertainty in outcome is usually, more or less, part of the picture. In a place like Iraq, inevitably, people's perception about which side will win will generate a certain momentum. The side which will be seen as the losing one will be taken less seriously, and its support will dwindle. That's why an opportunistic man like John Kerry, with his moaning about the "wrong war, wrong place, blah, blah" - followed - in almost the same breath - by a promise to "win it" - would be a disaster as a leader.

Wars are won only if they are won first in people's minds. Cutting off heads on TV is meant to show total determination - and to intimidate the opponents. Both sides know it, especially Zarqawi. Can such primitive ancient methods be effective against a modern Western power, and in our sophisticated times? Well, this remains to be seen.

But the notion that Iraq doesn't have the human material to support a relatively liberal political system... is pure speculation.



To: Bilow who wrote (152726)11/30/2004 12:34:24 AM
From: Sam  Respond to of 281500
 
Nov. U.S. Death Toll in Iraq Nears Record
[EDIT: That 133 number is "just" because of Fallujah, now that that weapons dump is in friendly hands, the numbers will go down. Of course, the 1250-some deaths don't include wounded, and don't include our Iraqi allies, as Bush called them in the debates, who we can't really be bothered to count. Nor does it include the number of civilians killed and wounded. Oh, wait, our smart bombs and our well trained soldiers don't kill civilians, do they? Carl, your notion of holding the election and declaring victory is an interesting one--but how many times can people be made to believe "Peace with Honor" followed by vicious civil wars? Endless times, probably, for the patriots in this country.]

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

WASHINGTON - The U.S. military death toll in Iraq (news - web sites) rose by at least three Monday and the November total is approaching the highest for any month since the American-led invasion was launched in March 2003.

At least 133 U.S. troops have died in Iraq so far this month — only the second time it has topped 100 in any month. The deadliest month was last April when 135 U.S. troops died as the insurgency flared in Sunni-dominated Fallujah, where dozens of U.S. troops died this month.

The Pentagon (news - web sites)'s official death toll for Iraq stood at 1,251 on Monday, but that did not include two soldiers killed by a roadside bomb in Baghdad and another killed in a vehicle accident. When the month began, the death toll stood at 1,121, the Pentagon said.

It was not clear whether the bombing deaths of two Marines south of Baghdad on Sunday were included in the overall count the Pentagon published Monday.

Also Monday, Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s top deputy vowed in a videotape aired Monday to keep fighting the United States until Washington changed its policies.

In a brief excerpt broadcast on Al-Jazeera television, Ayman al-Zawahri said Americans "have to choose between one of two methods to deal with Muslims: either on mutual respect and exchange of interests, or to deal with them as if they are spoils of war." He added, "You have to realize that we are a nation of patience and endurance. We will stand firm to fight you with God's help until doomsday."

One factor that drove up combat casualties was fierce fighting in Fallujah. Combat injuries also have increased this month due to the Fallujah battle. Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington reported Monday that it received 32 additional battle casualties from Iraq over the past two weeks. One was in critical condition. All 32 had been treated earlier at the Army's main hospital in Europe, Landstuhl Regional Medical Center.

Some of the most severe injuries — and many of the deaths — among U.S. troops in Iraq are inflicted by the insurgents' homemade bombs, which the military calls improvised explosive devices, or IEDs.

U.S. forces have put extraordinary effort into countering the IED threat, yet it persists. U.S. troops in Fallujah reported finding nearly as many homemade explosives over the past three weeks as had been uncovered throughout Iraq in the previous four months combined.

In recent action in Fallujah, troops found at least 650 homemade bombs, Bryan Whitman, a spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, said Monday. That compares with 722 found throughout the country between July 1 and October 31.

The IEDs are rigged to detonate by remote control and often are hidden along roadways used by U.S. forces, to deadly effect.

Since U.S. forces invaded Fallujah on Nov. 8 to regain control from insurgents, they have found about a dozen IED "factories," a number of vehicles being modified to serve as car bombs, and at least 10 surface-to-air missiles capable of downing aircraft, Whitman said.

More than half of the approximately 100 mosques in Fallujah were used as fighting positions or weapon storage sites, Whitman said, citing a U.S. military report that has not been released publicly.

U.S. officials knew insurgents had used Fallujah as a haven from which to plan and organize resources for attacks in Baghdad and other cities in the so-called Sunni Triangle north and west of the capital, but the amount of weapons found exceeded expectations.

Rumsfeld told a Pentagon news conference last Tuesday that the kinds and amount of weapons found in Fallujah indicated the insurgents pose a serious and continuing threat.

"No doubt attacks will continue in the weeks and months ahead, and perhaps intensify as the Iraqi election approaches," Rumsfeld said, referring to national elections scheduled for Jan. 30.

Whitman said other discoveries in Fallujah include:



_Plastic explosives and TNT.

_A hand-held Global Positioning System receiver for use in navigation.

_Makeshift shoulder-fired rocket launchers, rocket-propelled grenades, 122mm rockets and thousands of mortar rounds.

_An anti-aircraft artillery gun.

_More than 200 major weapons storage areas.

At the State Department, meanwhile, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) told reporters Monday there is no reason Iraq should not hold its Jan. 30 elections as scheduled, despite the insurgency.

"We are working hard on it," he said.

The United Nations (news - web sites) has increased its presence in the country, thousands of Iraqis are working on registration and "we are encouraging all parties to participate in the political process, especially in the Sunni heartland," Powell said.

"An election is the way forward," Powell said. "It's the means by which the Iraqi people can say to the world, we want to live in democracy, we want to be able to choose our leaders, and not let these individuals who are using car bombs to murder innocent people" be allowed to succeed.

___

On the Net:

Military casualty statistics at web1.whs.osd.mil

The Defense Department at defenselink.mil
story.news.yahoo.com