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Pastimes : Neocon's Seminar Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Tom Clarke who wrote (1057)11/30/2004 9:02:59 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1112
 
Plato's beef with Homer is more subtle than that. The point is that poets lie: it must be so, because gods worthy of the name could not act like the Homeric gods. Additionally, Homer represents a world where the pursuit of immortality through heroic deeds is central, and the obligation of the nobility to the commonwealth is almost unacknowledged, as if the state belongs to the king to support his quest for honor. This is inimical to justice and the rational pursuit of a good life, in Plato's view. Thus, it is a religious quarrel, if you will, over the true nature of man and of the gods.........



To: Tom Clarke who wrote (1057)12/1/2004 8:26:20 PM
From: average joe  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1112
 
Afterwards however I went to others, suspecting and grieving and fearing that I should make enemies. At the same time however it appeared to me to be necessary to pay the greatest attention to the oracle of the God, and that, considering what could be its meaning, I should go to all that appeared to possess any knowledge. And by the dog, O Athenians, (for it is necessary to tell you the truth,) that which happened to me was as follows. Those that were most celebrated for their wisdom appeared to me to be most remote from it; but others who were considered as far inferior to them possessed more of intellect. But it is necessary to relate to you my wandering, and the labours as it were which I endured, that the oracle might become to me unconfuted. For after the politicians I went to the poets both tragic and dithyrambic, and also others, expecting that I should here immediately find myself to be less wise than these. Taking up, therefore, some of their poems which appeared to me to be the most elaborately written, I asked them what was their meaning, that at the same time I might learn something from them. I am ashamed indeed, O Athenians, to tell you the truth; but at the same time it must be told. For, as I may say, all that were present would have spoken better about the things which they had composed. I discovered this, therefore, in a short time concerning the poets, that they did not effect by wisdom that which they did, but by a certain genius and from enthusiastic energy, like prophets and those that utter oracles. For these also say many and beautiful things, but they understand nothing of what they say. Poets, therefore, appeared to me to be affected in a similar manner. And at the same time I perceived that they considered themselves, on account of their poetry, to be the wisest of men in other things, in which they were not so. I departed, therefore, also from them, thinking that I surpassed them by the very same thing in which I surpassed the politicians.

THE APOLOGY of SOCRATES
(from volume iv of the Works of Plato - TTS vol. XII)