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Politics : Moderate Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (14241)	12/1/2004 12:31:43 PM
From: cosmicforce	Respond to of 20773

It is also not unpatriotic to point out that in the original Constitution not all people were included. Indigenous people and slaves counted as landscaping items and didn't get a vote, but an adjusted representation. Slaves persisted a lot longer in the U.S. than any other developed country of the 19th century. After being abroad, there is much to like about the U.S. There is also much that could be better, and to deny that there is room for improvement and that a true patriot should be his/her country's harshest critic is to also deny the wrongs done. Without moral growth, a country leading democracy will fail. In the absence of education and restraint, democracy looks like a lynch mob. A citizen has to merely look at our various historical roles in Latin America or the Philippine Islands to see where improvements could have been made. This is not to say we were in some sense worse than the Spanish or Japanese in those same venues. But it is clear, we weren't as much BETTER as we could have been. We should all do better than we have, and this war and this decade is no different. With 8-10 Billion dollars flowing out of our country every month, we should all consider what other things are not being bought and paid for - our dollar and national esteem are in the toilet. We can't do it all and candidate Bush said he'd never go in for Nation Building, so we must ask ourselves (too late really) what does a win in the Middle East REALLY look like?

To: epicure who wrote (14241)	12/1/2004 5:51:07 PM
From: Dan B.	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 20773

Re: "You are too in love with your own ideas. You need a cold shower. case closed" Well, no, I rather like the idea of Individual Freedom...not my own idea, thank-you. By the by, it is sad that you choose to toss out ad hominen hooey rather than honestly responding on point. You've made no further case at all. Re: "this hasn't been a conversation" Well, by definition it was, though it certainly is lacking now that you've become so upset at my honest thoughts about your prior statements that you've resorted to ad hominem hooey. Frankly, as it stands however, you don't have to say "I don't know that Individual Freedom is proven to be necessary in good government for people, like you do," because you made it plain earlier. Hey, I disagree, so there ya go. Re: "I think America is a fine experiment, but it is only 200 years old. The durability of this experiment is not proved. (case open)" Durability is a fine criteria sometimes, but say, if Al Qaeda introduced a virus on this continent and wiped America out, it would say nothing of the value of a government including lots of Individual Freedom VS, say, Talibanic rule(or a dictatorship, you name it), to a given society of people. Re: "wouldn't want to see you hurt yourself with that American flag you are waving so wildly" As part of your ad-hominem hooey, the above interpretation of my words is clueless, given that I know that it isn't the American Flag I'm waving, it is, rather, the flag of Freedom(which sadly again, is not fully understood by the American people today, and the U.S. Government certainly doesn't adhere to it nearly enough). Dan B.

To: epicure who wrote (14241)	12/2/2004 3:01:49 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 20773

Re: because I wouldn't want to see you hurt yourself with that American flag you are waving so wildly.) Most on SI know that Danny Boy suffers from cranialrectalitis. It's a testimonial to the profound insight of Ionesco to see that Danny Boy suffers, additionally, from profound flagellarectalitis. Science always advances. Except in the age of Danny. An epochal aneurysm if ever there was one. Is Danny waving the flag like this guy? Eine Partei. Ein Gott. Ein Führer. bartcop.com Sieg, Heil!