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Pastimes : Don't Ask Rambi -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: JF Quinnelly who wrote (66057)	12/5/2004 2:07:03 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 71178

<The appeal to logic as 'God' is a simple exercise that challenges the claims of 'materialism'. Logic is not material, but it exists. And it also has other interesting qualities. It appears to exist outside of time. It appears to be self-defining and self-existent, not dependent upon anything else.> jfred, why move the discussion from logic, in a single leap, to use the word God? Which is as you know and explain, contaminated with a vast array of meanings, which are not clear in any particular use. Which of course makes the word useless for our purposes. I'm pleased to see that I managed to navigate your list of trick questions while making up the answers on the spot. I suppose I was following a train of logic and didn't have a choice but to conclude what I did. But I think you [or whoever you are quoting] has gone AWOL with those comments above. I don't think it's right to say that logic isn't material, nor that it's self-defining and self-existent, not dependent on anything else. Which brings us back to that self-referential, self-reverential Goedelian stuff you told me about all those years ago. I say logic is material. It isn't just self-referential. Nor prime mover. Nor first cause or uncaused cause. It's part of the weird duality of nature - the wave functions only come into existence when the observer observes. Before logic can be, an observer, which is material [some objective reality existing able to detect the effect of the logic which is proposed] has to previously exist. We go around and around in circles. Each unable to exist until the other does. So both the observer and the logic must pop into existence and neither can exist without the other and both are therefore material in that each is part of the duality which is manifest only in an actual material objective existence. If you get my drift. I am making this up as I go so I'm not sure that I should offer my normal double your money back guarantee that you can depend on it. Oh, what the heck. That was a fully logical explanation, so it must be right. So, double your money back guarantee it is. To find out where it begins, meaning first cause, uncaused cause, non-observed producer of the duality in the first place, we need to track back upstream to see what happened. Follow the logical train of events back to the big bang and decipher the trickery that went on then, or there. It might be easier to just run the process forwards, because I suspect we will end up back where we began, which might be inside a spectacularly impressive black hole encompassing everything, which is where we already are. Plus ca change. I now give up and declare it something to be figured out manana. Mqurice