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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (153231)	12/3/2004 11:48:45 AM
From: jlallen	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I think the Iraq people could be doing more....

To: Neocon who wrote (153231)	12/3/2004 12:00:37 PM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Wasnt talking about military and police although i am skeptical about their effectiveness as well. I am talking about the people in the triangle, particularly those who got blasted at the shiaa mosque. To beat the bad guys we need folks helping us and not being at best ambivalent and at worst taking some sort of perverse delight in what the terrorist/baathists do. Thats why i mentioned al sader. Shiaa interests should lead them to ally with us in the short run now that they are under attack. The scars in the najaf fighting should give way to common interests. Sistani should take the lead in this if he truly wants somewhat successful elections and a somewhat stable iraq. mike

To: Neocon who wrote (153231)	12/5/2004 4:35:36 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

Neocon, re: Who said they weren't fighting? Where do you think militia and police recruits come from? The facts say they aren't doing much, including those recruits who take the money we throw at them so that their families can eat. It's the U.S. military that's telling us how well the Iraqi units are doing, that they are "spearheading" the offensive in Fallujah and that some of their units are fighting "gallantly." According to the reports of sources that are not "military spokesmen," the truth is that the Iraqis desert in droves whenever it looks like they'll have to kill other Iraqis or be killed themselves. Some of them have been reported to have joined up with the "enemy" in such circumstances or to have given the weapons we supply them to the insurgents. All too often they are not willing to fight and die for the puppet government of Allawi. But you continue to rely upon "official sources" as proof of the silly theory that "more training" will create a fighting force to protect the future we've chosen for the Iraqi people. I can't help but ask again "why?" Do you remember the official reports on Tillman? A new investigative report details the FACTS of his death and it's clear that not only did the army lie when it said he earned a silver star for fearlessly attacking enemy ambushers, it's also clear that the army knew from the onset that it was a barefaced, despicable lie. Now why would the army lie about a thing as inconsequential as that, and does that indicate it would lie about bigger things? Yes; because the army accepts lying to the American public as part of its public relations strategy to maintain support for the war? But why do some of you have to swallow so fast? msnbc.msn.com Excerpts: [Before Tillman was even hit his unit knew that they were facing friendly fire, it didn't take weeks to learn the facts:] The young Ranger nearest Tillman on the ridge, whose full name could not be confirmed, saw a Humvee coming down the road. "They made eye contact with us," then began firing, he remembered. Baker's heavily armed vehicle "rolled into our sight and started to unload on top of us. They would work in bursts." Tillman and nearly a dozen other Rangers on the ridge tried everything they could: They shouted, they waved their arms, and they screamed some more. "Ranger! Ranger! Cease fire!" one soldier on the ridge remembered shouting. "But they couldn't hear us," recalled the soldier nearest Tillman. Then Tillman "came up with the idea to let a smoke grenade go." As its thick smoke unfurled, "This stopped the friendly contact for a few moments," the Ranger recalled. "We thought the battle was over, so we were relieved, getting up and stretching out, and talking with one another." Suddenly he saw the attacking Humvee move into "a better position to fire on us." He heard a new machine gun burst and hit the ground, praying, as Pat Tillman fell. ...... [It wasn't that the army was confused about Tillman's death; the army was out and out lying:] The records show Tillman fought bravely and honorably until his last breath. They also show that his superiors exaggerated his actions and invented details as they burnished his legend in public, at the same time suppressing details that might tarnish Tillman's commanders. Army commanders hurriedly awarded Tillman a posthumous Silver Star for valor and released a nine-paragraph account of his heroism that made no mention of fratricide. A month later the head of the Army's Special Operations Command, Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., called a news conference to disclose in a brief statement that Tillman "probably" died by "friendly fire." Kensinger refused to answer questions. ..... It would take almost five more weeks — after a flag-draped coffin ceremony, a Silver Star award and a news release, and a public memorial attended by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), Jake Plummer and newswoman Maria Shriver — for the Rangers or the Army to acknowledge to Kevin Tillman, his family or the public that Pat Tillman had been killed by his own men. Neocon, this was not a deception concocted and conducted by a few men, it took the coordination of the army command and the army's spokesmen to create this mythical set of facts. Don't trust what you're told by government officials who have an interest in molding your views for their own ends. Honesty, ethics and a deep and abiding respect for the truth are not a part of this administration nor of our military. Unless you're one of the many who want to be told what makes them feel good as opposed to the facts, you should understand this reality and reject the "Americans don't do such things" trusting view that obscures the true state of events. A more accurate understanding of reality is only to be found through cynicism, critical thinking and a weighing of all the available information; not through trusting the words and oaths of public figures and citing them in the face of evidence that clearly calls into question their veracity. Ed