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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: E. Charters who wrote (18847)	12/6/2004 12:23:40 PM
From: Solon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 28931

"Since entropy is provable (the laws of thermodyanmics) and no mechanism of rebirth of finite energy has been found, then time must end. If that is so, then it must have had a beginning" NO, no, no. You folks always get yurself tangled up in too many ropes. You gotta hold the ends of the scarf in each hand and put the knot in it without using your teeth. Time is required for both beginnings and endings. Time cannot exist before itself, therefore no causality can exist. The causality that WE understand is bound up in time. It is nonsense to suggest that time is caused, as causative concepts cannot exist before time. There is no separation between events before time, therefore there can be no distinct events: ergo--no cause and no effect. Therefore, rather than saying that time had to have a cause, one would better say that time COULD NOT have had a cause. It is like a train which runs along a track. You are saying it will run out of track, therefore there must have been a point behind or before the train where there was no track. But you still want the track to be behind the train as "cause". Because you must explain how the train got there. But you cannot have it both ways. You cannot have cause and effect without time. I will reverse it. If God always existed and the universe did not always exist, then God was ALL or EVERYTHING. Since there is nothing that exists in space or time that is not contained within ALL, then space, time, and EVERYTHING must all have been God (if anything was, or could be). It is one thing to acknowledge (as we all do) that things come into being in the sense that matter, space, and time combine in new ways to make objects or things that humans may see, smell, or name; but it is another to claim that these arrangements were not informed by pre-existent energy. Thus, on a small scale, the sun's energy is soaked up by the earth, and the sperm and the egg eat that energy and grow and grow, and then they eat more of that energy and grow bigger and then they get a name and then they eat cows and rabbits and lettuce on pita bread (which is a pocket). To leave this paradigm (which we all know and understand) and to inject hocus pocus into the picture by stating that our God hypothesis now must be changed midstream and "He was/is ALL" is no longer defining but rather limiting because it is necessary for human superstition that the supernatural idea of "creation" be justified--that is simply to invent the supernatural and creation out of whole cloth--is like pulling a rabbit out of the hat but denying that the rabbit was pulled out of the hat. If we are to base part of our argument on "realities" such as entropy and limits on space, time, and matter, then we must not bury our argument by the claim that it means nothing insofar as we now will invent a creature that either WAS all energy and conforms to the law that creation or growth derives from energy...or we must now just state baldly that a creature exists such that It requires no sustenance and has no "existence" other than what may be imagined at the edges of rationality and logic. So all "proofs" for God that I have seen are simply magicians pulling rabbits out of a hat and denying both the rabbit and the hat. Even the bible--the fables of primitive people wandering a flat earth--understood the “creation “ as simple manipulation of matter….a process of accelerated change rather than ex nihilo.