Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (90851)	12/8/2004 4:52:19 PM
From: J. C. Dithers	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

but you can't think much of those folks who still think Iraq was involved in 9/11, and that Saddam was active with Al Qaeda. Whoever those people voted for, they are idiots. Do you know what question "those [stupid] folks" were asked? (Let alone under what circumstances?). Were they asked question "Do you think Iraq was involved in 9/11 and that Saddam was active with Al Qaeda?" I hope not, but it wouldn't be the first time pollsters used a compound question looking for a "yes" or "no". Was the word "involved" used in the question(s) asked? You, who prizes nuances so much, should be asking just what the hell does "involved" mean? Are you "involved" if you knew about 9/11 in advance? If you heard about it through the grapevine are you "involved"? If you had any connection whatsoever to the training or funding of terrorists were you "involved" in 9/11? And were people asked "Was Saddam active with Al Queda"? Just what the hell does "active" .... Oh, never mind.

To: epicure who wrote (90851)	12/9/2004 12:27:18 AM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

"Not everyone who voted for Bush is stupid- but you can't think much of those folks who still think Iraq was involved in 9/11, and that Saddam was active with Al Qaeda. Whoever those people voted for, they are idiots." Very well said, Ionesco. I agree totally. This was a really bad news day in Iraq. I can't understand why there is not more discussion here about it. Anyway, here is an article I wanted to post (I hope no one has already posted it): Former Marine in Iraq: We fired on unarmed civilians, wounded combatants BETH DUFF-BROWN Associated Press TORONTO - A former Marine on the front lines of Iraq, a witness for an American seeking to become the first U.S. soldier granted asylum in Canada, said Wednesday several men in his unit were "psychopaths" who enjoyed killing unarmed Iraqi civilians who posed no threat. U.S. Army Pfc. Jeremy Hinzman, 26, is calling on the Immigration and Refugee Board to grant him, his wife and 2-year-old son refugee status in Canada, claiming he would face persecution if forced to return to the United States. He fled Fort Bragg, N.C., to Canada weeks before his 82nd Airborne Division was due to be deployed to Iraq. He had served three years in the Army, but had applied for conscientious objector status before his unit was sent to Afghanistan in 2002. Hinzman's case comes just as Ottawa is attempting to improve relations with Washington, which soured dramatically after Canada refused to send troops to Iraq. Jimmy Massey, a staff sergeant who was in the Marines for 12 years and served three months in Iraq before being honorably discharged with post-traumatic stress syndrome, told the immigration board during the last day of Hinzman's three-day hearing that his colleague likely would have been forced to commit atrocities that violated Geneva Conventions. Massey, 33, of Waynesville, N.C., said his 7th Marines weapons company was stationed at a checkpoint in the southern Baghdad district of Rashid. He said he and his men killed more than 30 civilians in a 48-hours period in early April, including unarmed demonstrators and a man who drove up in a car and raised his hands above his head in the universal symbol of surrender. "I know in my heart that these vehicles that came up, that they were civilians," he said. "But I had to act on my orders. It's a struggle within my heart." The orders, he said, were to shoot at anyone who drove into what is known as the "red zone" surrounding the vehicle checkpoint because they could be suicide bombers carrying explosives. He told the immigration and refugee tribunal, which is expected to make its decision early next year, that he got caught up in the frenzy of the attacks and shot at civilians as well. "I take full responsibility for my actions," said Massey. "We deliberately gunned down people who were civilians. I became so concerned because I felt that Marines were honestly enjoying it. I saw plenty of Marines become psychopaths, they enjoyed the killing." The Marine Corps denies Massey's allegations. "We're not saying he's lying, but his perception of what the situation was in relation to the rules of engagement, and what was justified, is different than ours," said Maj. Douglas Powell, a spokesman for the Marine Corps at the Pentagon. "It was investigated and any acts of wrongdoing, in regards to violations of the laws of war, the laws of armed conflict, were unsubstantiated." Hinzman is arguing that the war in Iraq is illegal and fighting in it would have made him a war criminal. He also said he would face persecution if forced to return to the United States, noting he receives threatening hate mail via the Internet. A typical term in a military prison for Army desertion is a year. "After I would be released from jail, the chances of my getting a job would be slim and there would be social persecution," he told reporters after his hearing. Hinzman is one of three American military deserters seeking refugee status in Canada. Hearings for Brandon Hughey, of the Army's First Cavalary, and David Sanders of the Navy were scheduled to be heard by the refugee board in January. Jeffry House, an American lawyer who first came to Canada as a draft dodger during the Vietnam War, is representing the three Americans. He said the 30,000 to 50,000 Americans who fled to Canada during Vietnam and were allowed to settle in their northern neighbor, but that Hinzman would become the first American soldier to be granted political asylum in Canada. charlotte.com