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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (153977)	12/14/2004 3:15:03 PM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

"Any "neocon" ideology that assumes that military might can alter cultures, change ideologies and move little people to flow like sheep into pastures of "acceptable behaviors," is a fatally flawed ideology. " I am not sure that the above is the neocon ideology. But in any case we sort of did the same thing in afganistan and it worked. If we had sent in a half million men, shock and awe might have worked and iraqis could have been changed to some degree like post war germans and japanese were. No doubt iraq is much more complex as its really three states in one. But the point being argued is moot anyway and i do agree that getting out is better than as kyrosi implys the necessity of a draft for biden/mccain and certainly far better than the failed DOD admin of rummy. Each day he looks more and more like bob macnamara. I can still see that sonofabitch in my dreams with his slickly parted hair. Do you think when rummy gets older he will be crying on TV too? We have a couple of months to go before we make the critical mistake made in vietnam. Do you think bush and rummy know this. mike

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (153977)	12/14/2004 3:29:36 PM
From: neolib	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Ed. IMHO you absolutely nail it here: No matter how many men we'd gone in with, that effort was doomed to create an intractable insurgency that would resist us ruthlessly. Any "neocon" ideology that assumes that military might can alter cultures, change ideologies and move little people to flow like sheep into pastures of "acceptable behaviors," is a fatally flawed ideology. The people who believe in that ideology have too little understanding of human nature and too little respect for the awesome cumulative power and nobility of the faceless people that toil live and die in anonymity. Those little people are the most powerful force on earth when their collective backs are up and their passions run high. They will make you pay a high price for your folly. The problem is that there are also some in Iraq that would like safety and freedom more like what we are trying to impose on the whole country. Do we sell those ones short because we annoyed the others? I wish we paid more attention to not annoying the others to start with.

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (153977)	12/15/2004 9:53:32 AM
From: Nadine Carroll	Respond to of 281500

In this instance there was NO legitimate Iraqi movement to help unless it was the movement of the Islamics, and it's clear we were trying to suppress that movement rather than assist it. We were, therefor, attempting to use military force to alter a culture, a nation and a society for the purpose of imposing our views of the way their internal affairs should be conducted So in your ideal world, all a dictator has to do to be safe forever is kill enough people to crush the opposition, and hey presto, he becomes the "legitimate" ruler, the proper representative of the local culture? Seriously, is that what you are saying? BTW, even your statement is completely false, as it ignores the Kurds and the Shia, both of whom had opposition movements, open in the case of the Kurds, underground in the case of the Shia.