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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: RetiredNow who wrote (213862)	12/23/2004 5:43:21 PM
From: Road Walker	Respond to of 1572324

re: Imagine an Al-Qaeda affiliated group (maybe Zarqawi's, if he survives) able to move freely in Iraq with full support of the government and access to oil revenues to carry out their nefarious acts. That is what awaits us if we pull out now. That's the Bush legacy. It doesn't matter if it's now or later, that's the end result... unless we get way luckier than we deserve. EVERYDAY that we spend there increases the likelihood and magnitude of the negative result. You would have to be blind not to see that. John

To: RetiredNow who wrote (213862)	12/23/2004 5:45:56 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1572324

What you don't get is that this war would have been screwed up had it been well executed. I think you hit on the fundamental difference between what you believe and what conservatives believe. Conservatives, myself included, believe that we can't wait any longer for Democracy to miraculously appear out of thin air in the Middle East. So the idea is to see if it is possible to bring it there faster. Only time will tell if this strategy will work. Its too bad because I don't think some conservatives know how democracy works. You can't force it.........it has to come from the people; from the bottom up like the way its happening in Ukraine. Iraqis are no where close to wanting a democracy. That's why we are fighting this war with no end in sight. If the Iraqis wanted it, they would be out there fighting with us......like the Ukrainians protesting in Kiev's main square day in and day out in the freezing cold. Instead, Iraqis cower in their houses or join the resistance. We are the enemy, not the liberator. Right or wrong, everyone better hope the strategy works, because any pull out now, before a Democracy is instituted will be a disaster for everyone. Just like leaving Vietnam would be disaster? Well, you might want to plan on leaving before there's democracy in Iraq. How long did we last in Vietnam before we gave up? Hopefully, it won't be as long in Iraq......but who knows........I didn't really think Americans were foolish enough to re elect Bush....and they did. Maybe it will take them a while to figure out that Iraq is a no win situation. And then 40 years from now, the GOP complainingly can assert we would have won had liberals not given up so easily. Imagine an Al-Qaeda affiliated group (maybe Zarqawi's, if he survives) able to move freely in Iraq with full support of the government and access to oil revenues to carry out their nefarious acts. That is what awaits us if we pull out now. We have guaranteed al Qa'ida a level of success that was not possible before Iraq. In the Muslim world, Al Qa'ida grows in stature as our star darkens rapidly. By opening Pandora's Box, we have messed up badly. A year ago, things were supposed to be much better by now. Instead, they are much worse. And there is nothing to indicate they will get better any time soon.

To: RetiredNow who wrote (213862)	12/23/2004 5:51:31 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1572324

US Failed to Honestly Assess Iraq Threat - Report by Carol Giacomo WASHINGTON - The United States is facing increasingly deadly attacks in Iraq because, as in the Vietnam war, it failed to honestly assess facts on the ground, according to a new think tank report. (The Bush administration) failed to honestly assess the facts on the ground in a manner reminiscent of Vietnam. Center for Strategic and International Studies The report, prepared by Anthony Cordesman, senior fellow of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said administration spokesmen had appeared to live "in a fantasyland" when giving accounts of events in Iraq. Cordesman, a former Pentagon official who has made several trips to Iraq, said Iraqi spies were a serious threat to U.S. operations and that there was no evidence insurgent numbers were declining despite vigorous U.S. and Iraqi counterattacks. The report(.pdf) was updated after Tuesday's attack on a U.S. base in Mosul which killed 22 people. Defense officials said the explosion was apparently caused by a suicide bomber, underscoring the problem of infiltrators in U.S. operations. After the 2003 invasion to oust Saddam Hussein, the United States "assumed that it was dealing with a limited number of insurgents that coalition forces would defeat well before the election" of a new Iraqi government, Cordesman asserted. "It did not see the threat level that would emerge if it did not provide jobs or pensions for Iraqi career officers or co-opt them into the nation-building effort. ... It acted as if it had years to rebuild Iraq using its own plans, rather than months to shape the climate in which Iraqis could do it," he said. Cordesman said in the first year of the U.S. occupation, Washington "failed to come to grips with the Iraqi insurgency ... in virtually every important dimension." NO HONEST ASSESSMENT Under the heading "Denial as a method of counter-insurgency warfare," the report accused the United States of minimizing the insurgent and criminal threat in Iraq and of exaggerating popular support for U.S. and coalition efforts. Washington "in short ... failed to honestly assess the facts on the ground in a manner reminiscent of Vietnam," Cordesman wrote. He said that as late as July 2004, administration spokesmen still lived "in a fantasyland in terms of their public announcements," including putting the core insurgent force at 5,000 individuals when experts in Iraq knew the correct number to be 12,000 to 16,000. As in most insurgencies, including Vietnam, sympathizers within the Iraqi government and Iraqi forces, as well as Iraqis working for the coalition, media and non-governmental organizations, "often provided excellent human intelligence (about U.S. and coalition operations) without violently taking part in the insurgency," the report said. Cordesman said U.S. attempts to vet these Iraqis cannot solve the problem because "it seems likely that family, clan and ethnic loyalties have made many supposedly loyal Iraqis become at least part-time sources." Since early 2004, insurgents have suffered tactical defeats in Baghdad, Falluja and elsewhere. Still, "there is no evidence that the number of insurgents is declining as a result of coalition and Iraqi attacks to date," Cordesman said. U.S. troops left Vietnam in 1973 after the war lost support at home. Many Americans became disenchanted with their government's failure to tell the truth about U.S. operations in Vietnam and about casualty levels. reuters.com