To: Frank A. Coluccio who wrote (8510 ) 12/28/2004 8:02:46 AM From: axial Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 46821 Hi Frank - The "fat" referred to in my post was a metaphor for North American society. Those spare tires we carry are a whole 'nother thing, al Jazeera notwithstanding. These snips are not intended to distort the meaning of your post... "There's probably no other way to address fifty years out in a realistic fashion, due to the mutual dependence and the lag-lead relationships of yet unknown technological breakthroughs to those of today, or how we will ultimately be harnessing energy in the year 2054." Referring to a future power generation deficit, "...I can only say that we're getting some good practice seeing this story unfold today in many parts of the globe, albeit for a plethora of other reasons." "...In my own field I note the futility and the mega-personnel-years that I'm sure many have chalked up as being "wasted" in just a short period of fifteen or twenty years, relatively speaking. Here, leading-edge networkologists during the Seventies were plotting the way to a nirvana-like switched services paradigms with milestones targeted at the year 1990 and beyond, only to have those plans go up in smoke when it became apparent that the Internet, using an altogether different model consisting of routing instead of switching, would subsume everything in its path. This is a realization that has only recently been more globally, if not fully, accepted, forty years after the blueprints of the earlier switched paradigms I just mentioned were laid out." Your caution is well-taken; gazing into crystal balls is dangerous these days. Perhaps it will help to define some things we can agree on, and discuss power generation in that context. I submit the following: 1 - Population growth: differs by area, but by 2050 we can expect ~8 - 9 billion globally 2 - Global warming, irrespective of disputes on causation: there is a trend 3 - The power generation deficit already exists in many parts of the globe, as you note; I would add that our grid and generation capacity are already maxed in areas of North America - particularly in summer, when electricity (as opposed to fossil fuel heating) must make up temperature differences outside the comfort zone. 4 - "Lag-lead relationships" ... IMO this area defines one of the greatest concerns, and here's why: if you look back at the scope of new generation required, and when it will be needed, we see a confluence of events: A - The search for fossil-fuel sources will become increasingly expensive, in terms of incremental energy costs (sources may be rejected because they're a net "energy sink") - and capital. Back to capital in a minute. B - The lead time required to bring either fuel sources or generation capacity online - especially nuclear power generation as we have known it - ie., megaprojects. C - Reliance on foreign oil sources: every megawatt we produce today reduces our reliance on others, and promotes our future ability to transcend. Now is the time to build, cost-effectively. D - Finally, capital. Mid-century scenarios indicate the possible and synergistic confluence of many trends: global warming, need for power, population growth, and the "cost of doing business" as defined by the cost of energy. If you re-read the projected generation needs, ask yourself how much money will that take. Where will that money come from? I suggest global capital demands at that time will be huge, and many who arrive unprepared will have no recourse but public funding. ...Considering the above, lead time required to fine-tune nuclear power generation on the Daniels model, and get it incrementally installed at the edge of North American generation and transmission, I don't think we have a lot of time. Given that it would probably take 5 years to overcome opposition to nuclear power (if it could be done at all)."One can easily see how the same general areas of considerations that were discussed in this article, albeit covering a different subject matter, are overlooked by the average well-to-do westerner standing on line at the supermarket, or how a manufacturer might overlook how its processes impact energy requirements in a more global setting than the shelf space occupied in a Wal-Mart outlet or an auto dealership, even when the manufacturer has gone to great lengths to assure that its own manufacturing-related power consumption is kept to a bare minimum. Manufacturers are likely to do cost-benefit and tradeoff analyses on power related issues a lot sooner than a consumer might, or ever will, for many cuts of product. So yes, finding new outlets of energy is one thing. What we wind up doing with those new sources of energy when we find them? That’s something else." Good point. It's evident that we're nearing the time when incessant growth - and the concepts underlying that growth, nearing their end. We've been straight-arming the future for a while, but Malthus will have his day. Production of meaningless excess will become prohibitively expensive - especially in the presence of scarcity. This century will see huge transitions that none can escape. Those who prepare will probably fare better. In spite of the unknowns, surely this is a time for prudence. Me? There's a little piece of land about 200 feet above the Pacific, where one can build a fish-and-chip stand in the trees. Then, get out the rocking chair, and wait for the beach to arrive... I'm ready ;) Jim