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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: KLP who wrote (154883)	12/29/2004 6:59:26 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

KLP, re: You obviously don't know America nor Americans very well, if you really believe that. Another non sequitur? Is it a prerequisite for Bush disciples that they must reject any non-supportive analysis as either incomprehensible or tainted because it originated from a non-believing source? And yes, I think I know Americans pretty well. My family has fought for, worked in and enjoyed the freedoms of this great nation for many generations on my dad's side. In my 55 years I've seen a lot of Americans, I've watched them live in, fight for and die for America and I've stood beside them. I've always been a patriot, even when I thought that the men running this country were corrupt, misguided, arrogant and sometimes senseless fools. You see I support the concept of America, not the concept that Americans are some kind of superior beings. In case you don't know, we're not. Without the wisdom of the founding fathers and the long history of controlling laws and institutions that we inherited and refined, we're no better than any people anywhere. In case you forgot, the Americans who killed and tortured Iraqi prisoners, who have shot unarmed and defenseless enemies and committed gross atrocities while wearing our uniforms in Vietnam and elsewhere were, and are, Americans. Many of them come home and live good and decent lives when they're subject to institutional restraints and no longer scared angry. Maybe it's you who doesn't know Americans and who doesn't understand human nature. Maybe if you did you'd be more concerned with the actions of a president who has too much power and too little thoughtfulness, intellect and humility to exercise it wisely. But you don't really like to think about those feet of clay, do you? Ed

To: KLP who wrote (154883)	12/29/2004 9:10:22 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi KLP, I went and had a look, to see who was right. You are wrong <Parody, my eye. > You wrote: <One thing to remember michael....IF we hadn't gone into Iraq, think how much closer to getting nuclear materials the insurgents would be by now....if they didn't already have them. Saddam was flush with more money from the Oil-for-Food UN program....we STILL have no proof that he destroyed the WMD he did have in the early 90's... and we don't know what he sent to Syria and probably other countries in the fall of 2002...We remember several European journalists seeing truck convoys leaving Baghdad for the Syrian borders.....If the terrorists who are blowing up the Iraqi's and the Americans now had nukes....do you think it would be possible for them to try to get into Israel? And the US?> He wrote: <I didn't realize that we were allowed to base deadly aggressive policies on wild fears and what ifs. Now that I know, I'll try it myself. I.e.: One thing to remember KLP...If we hadn't gone into Iraq, think how much less powerful the insurgents might be now. In fact, there wouldn't be any insurgents at all or they'd be fighting against Saddam and certainly not killing our soldiers. Saddam would still have no wmds and maybe he'd have seen the light, become pious, paid reparations and allowed our own giant oil companies into his country to make obscene profits while still keeping our oil prices cheap. He might have taken the oil revenues and funded an AIDs research program that not only cured AIDs but also unlocked the keys to curing all human illness and preventing aging. > Yes indeed, that's a parody of what you wrote. Of course he didn't think Saddam was going to do other than what he'd always done. He didn't think Saddam was going to fund an AIDS cure, aging prevention etc. He was pointing out that what-ifs can be written in all sorts of ways without substance. Meanwhile, China/Russia are preparing "manoeuvres on China's territory" for 2005. I wonder if that will include Taiwan. Happy New Year Mqurice