Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Moderate Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (15073)	1/5/2005 4:18:27 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER	Respond to of 20773

Re: You can be against the war in Iraq and still see that what the US is trying to do is plant the seed of democracy in the center of a region with hopes it will flourish and spread to the countries around Iraq. Now their style of Government may be none of our business but I can understand the benefits to not having dictators sitting on a large percentage of the global energy. Don't mistake "democratization" for "Zionization" --clue: Paul Wolfowitz, chief architect of this war has been quoted as saying: "If we're not true to our principles, we're not serving our national interest." He believes that war on Iraq will engender more democracy in the Middle East and "the tendency toward successful representative self-government works for the benefit of the United States." ("First Stop Iraq," Time Magazine, 3.31.03) It's difficult to see how the reputedly brilliant Wolfowitz can actually believe this rubbish since everybody knows that a democratic Middle East would work against Israel's interests. Perhaps such talk is the way policy makers convince themselves of the justice of their cause. But in any event it should be clear that the Bush war policy is not a rational solution to the problem of scarce and valuable resources and has little to do with real world problem solving. Rather it is an ideological and messianic vision of pursuing a permanent war agenda by way of destroying Israel's enemies. Excerpted from: Message 20910481

To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (15073)	1/5/2005 5:28:43 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 20773

I'm not sure if you're talking down to me because you think I'm stupid or just exchanging ideas Sorry if I come across like that. English is a second language for me and I am writing in the best way I know how - if that looks like "talking down on people", I can only blame my Debate Club teacher circa 1980 :-) But there are things that I believe need to be done, reconciled, finished - whatever you want to say - before we can move forward on a global level. Could you explain that? What is the result you would like to see obtained re ME? And what exactly is this "move" on a global level? This is just a feeling I get reading your post (and do correct me if I am wrong): Do you believe every nation on this planet has to live like Americans? Electing their leader for a number of years, working hard, enjoying casual sex, etc. Or is it possible that other people might want to live differently - women covered head to toe (as opposed to in bikinis and naked on magazine centerfolds), a different system of government (be it monarchy or consensus building among tribal elders), etc? When you talk about "battle of cultures", I don't really know if you are talking about the differences in culture, what is acceptable and "normal" (from which US appears determined to "save" them), or the physical violence directed to US and its interests by extremist Muslim groups and the physical violence ignited by US in Iraq. I don't buy the notion that we're there to steal oil. I believe we're trying to calm a situation (and you can say war is a funny way to calm but it is what it is) that could have global impact with regard to energy Really? I thought your army was there because Iraq was such an imminent threat to world peace, just a teensy bit away from putting mushroom clouds on all western capital cities. Are you now saying all that was a ploy? That the real reason was some strategy on ME oil? You can be against the war in Iraq and still see that what the US is trying to do is plant the seed of democracy in the center of a region with hopes it will flourish and spread to the countries around Iraq. OK, now the next bit is not "talking down" to you and I still don't think you are "stupid" :-) You clearly mean well. However, your hopes of "seed of democracy" flourishing in the ME thanks to a brutal invasion that killed more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians, based on excuses later admitted to be false, that caused an uprising unprecedented in the history of the Iraqi people.... those hopes are a bit naive. Turkey is a neighbour of both Iran and Iraq. Turkey has been an electoral democracy where women have the right to vote, study, work, divorce, etc for the last EIGHTY years or so. Fat lot of good THAT "seed" did for the region's move towards democracy. AND Turkey was not invaded and FORCED to be a democracy (like the "seed" you are so hopeful of. Also consider the "insurgency" - Iraqis were not blowing themselves up trying to bring Saddam down, were they? Why do you think they feel more strongly about kicking the US out? Now their style of Government may be none of our business but I can understand the benefits to not having dictators sitting on a large percentage of the global energy. You are right. It is none of our business. And the benefits are only our own selfish benefits - what WE want. Even then, personally, I wouldn't want the deaths of a 100,000 people, just because I found Saddam appalling. As you can see now, if Iraqis really wanted Saddam out, they would have revolted against him. And they probably would, one day. Then it would be THEIR fight, and a different life would be THEIR desire. Life without hope leads people to do crazy things I agree with you. and I don't think there's much hope currently nor do I think there was much hope before we went into Iraq The current situation is much worse than before. I don't think that assessment needs penetrating observation skills or deep knowledge of the region. 100,000 civilians dead, US & UK in the losing position of invaders and occupiers, rationale for the invasion and their credibility shot to pieces. Iraq now a breeding ground for terrorists, who will no doubt carry their hatred AND practical know-how to other countries when they go back home. Not to mention annihilated alliances, aggrevated allies, bizarro doctrine of "we invade anyone whom we think might one day be a threat" that erases the development of human history since WWII. Brilliant. We can't have Palestine supporting terror against Israel One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, unfortunately. Especially so in places where the occupied nation feels like killing those of the occupying nation. I don't know who this "we" is that you are talking about, but as long as "we" are OK with Israel brutally occupying Palestinians, stealing their land bit by bit in mushrooming settlements, killing them off like animals with their raids, then I guess "we" don't have much to say about Palestinians striking at Israelis.