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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (94062)	1/6/2005 5:34:57 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793888

The pieces of paper I mentioned were all indicia of legal ownership or legal status. As you say, the pieces of paper are replaceable. But you can't even have the little pieces of paper unless you meet the pre-requisites. You keep wanting to entangle the certificate with the pre-requisite with the associated symbolism and sentiment. I keep wanting to sever them for the purpose of analysis. I don't know any place on earth where loving someone, having sex with that someone, and cohabiting with that someone conveys the actual status of marriage without something more. You're right. There's no way to be married other than to get married. Then your marital status is "married." We're making headway on severing status from pre-requisites. So, is it the conferring of that status, the holding of that certificate, that fosters good results in child rearing? Or is it the pre-requisite accomplishment that leads to the results? I insist that the latter is primary. I disagree with you about the pre-requisites of marriage. They are not, IMO, loving, having sex, and living together. That's called, as you put it, shacking up. The pre-requisites are or should be the mutual commitment to love and support one another and the family. If the parties meet the pre-requisites of marriage, the marital status is not necessary. Of they have the marital status but not the pre-requisites, or perhaps only the shack-up prerequisities rather than the marriage pre-requisites, they have only a piece of paper. That and perhaps some bratty kids. Look at it from the perspective of your other examples. Is a doctor a good doctor because he has a diploma and licens or because of his knowledge and skills? The former permit him to practice and certify for society that he has certain knowledge and skills. It's the knowledge and skills make him successful. Likewise successful raising of a family is not a function of the certificate with its associated status but rather the commitment and wherewithal. I acknowledge that the status can be helpful in supporting the pre-requisites over time and stress. The marital status makes it somewhat harder to give up if you get wobbly. But it's the commitment that's causal whereas marital status merely correlates. This is belied by the passion and energy spent by gay men and women trying to establish the right to marry. This is neither here nor there. Gays want the status because they can't have it, because they feel like second class citizens and don't like that, because they perceive married couples having a higher status (class) in society, not because getting married will make them more successful child raisers. Lest we get too lost on the garden path, raising kids is the objective here, not sex or status or certificates or living arrangements.