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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (156231)1/14/2005 12:55:11 PM
From: Noel de Leon  Respond to of 281500
 
"The inhabitants of the Connecticut River valley are also human beings with a right to self-determination...does that make the Connecticut River Valley a country? Obviously not."

Wrong and irrelevant.
Try building a wall across Connecticut River valley farmers' land and see what happens.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (156231)1/14/2005 1:17:25 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
The sovereignty issue is not very well thought through. A claim to ownership is not, by itself, more than hot air, without a means of validation and enforcement. The Sioux could claim the Dakotas, but why would anyone let them hold in thrall lands beyond their ability to either use or defend, when there were those prepared to put it to productive use? If a group cannot administer territory, at least with the help of allies, its claim is automatically disputable, and may therefore be settled through force of arms, unless greater powers impose a solution. Israel is vindicated, in the end, because, at the crucial moment, the Arab Powers sought to crush it, and it prevailed.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (156231)1/14/2005 1:28:17 PM
From: marcos  Respond to of 281500
 
Good analogy, yes - suppose the zoroastrians decided they wanted a Zorostaat and they selected the Connecticut River valley, well it seems pretty clear that any action they took in this regard would make the front page of the Boston papers, and take effect on the sense of nationalism of the valley's inhabitants, and if those inhabitants didn't already have a sense of nationalism, they would bloody soon get one

It is good to see that you are getting the hang of this stuff ... many have before you, though some had to struggle quite a bit on the way ... for instance here is David Ben-Gurion in a lucid moment, 1929 -

'It's true that the Arab national movement has no positive content. The leaders of the movement are unconcerned with betterment of the people and provision of their essential needs. They do not aid the fellah; to the contrary, the leaders suck his blood, and exploit the popular awakening for private gain. But we err if we measure the Arabs and their movement by our standards. Every people is worthy of its national movement. The obvious characteristic of a political movement is that it knows how to mobilize the masses. From this prospective there is no doubt that we are facing a political movement, and we should not underestimate it.'

palestineremembered.com

Lots of zionist quotes available from this page - palestineremembered.com

Back upthread a few days, the line of yours that set me off was one where you baldly state that Israel was not a colony ... well, here's Jabotinsky on that -

'If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find a benefactor who will maintain the garrison on your behalf. ... Zionism is a colonizing adventure and, therefore, it stands or falls on the question of armed forces.'

palestineremembered.com

Notice also [same page] that he clearly understood the situation on the ground, and wasn't trying to bullshit anybody with the 'land without a people' nonsense when he wrote this in 1923 -

'The Arabs loved their country as much as the Jews did. Instinctively, they understood Zionist aspirations very well, and their decision to resist them was only natural ..... There was not misunderstanding between Jew and Arab, but a natural conflict. .... No Agreement was possible with the Palestinian Arab; they would accept Zionism only when they found themselves up against an 'iron wall,' when they realize they had no alternative but to accept Jewish settlement.'