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Politics : Just the Facts, Ma'am: A Compendium of Liberal Fiction -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Suma who wrote (27838)	1/28/2005 12:59:52 PM
From: longnshort	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 90947

Suma, you can't have two lefties??? Are capitalists and facists both righties?

To: Suma who wrote (27838)	1/29/2005 1:07:22 AM
From: DavesM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 90947

IMO the reason that fascism and communism were enemies is because: Modern fascism was founded by a leading socialist, and the fascist and communist movements competed for followers among the same social class (the working class). Communist blamed the problems of society (and the working class in particular) on property and business owners. Fascists blamed those problems on "foreign" business owners, and the "foreigners" that lived among them. In the 30's being a capitalist or property owner (class) was probably as much an accident of birth as being born a Jew (ethnicity). In practice, I see little difference between how fascists or communists ruled countries. Furthermore, once they come to power, communists seem to be just as "nationalistic" as fascists. Stalin, Hitler...same cat, different mustache. re:"Check out your concept that Nazi equals leftist. It was just the opposite I fear. Stalin was in charge of Russia and everyone was worried about communism too.."

To: Suma who wrote (27838)	1/29/2005 1:48:32 PM
From: Peter Dierks	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 90947

IMO Nazi equals Authoritarian. It is not right or left, but a perpendicular continuum. True anarchists and Libertarians belong at the opposite end of the spectrum. Whatever you choose to call it, is just a label. You are right that proud Germans were suffering a crippling economic suppression inflicted by the vindictive peace forced on them at Versailles. An important distinction to not is that they wren not really nationalistic yet. The hundreds of Principalities had only been whittled down to one country less than a hundred years before. They were Prussians, Holsteiners, Trakkenans, etc. It seems like Kaiser Wilhelm was the first to rule a united Germany. Hitler did have his rise among the disaffected. He also had industrialists who bought into his leadership. Yes, he found a scapegoat. Jews were over represented in the merchant class, and were resented for the success that their sacrifices had brought to them. The downtrodden are always jealous of the successful. Even today, they want to get more from the rich, listen to the rhetoric of the left (no Tax cuts for the rich). Your social studies may have taught you that the left became the right, but the argument does not have me convinced. As I said before, Hitler used the same tools as socialists except he did not kill all of the merchants, just one group of them. As his society progressed, it needed new scapegoats, and became more kleptocratic. National Socialist party was shortened to NAZI. ------------------------------------------- A nice balance is desirable( fulcrum being moderates) You and I agree 100% on that.

To: Suma who wrote (27838)	1/29/2005 3:28:40 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 90947

( fulcrum being moderates) As in the inhabitants of Subject 53864 ? Anyone who imagines 3/4 of the inhabitants of THAT thread are "moderates" has SERIOUS mental problems. Check out your concept that Nazi equals leftist. It was just the opposite I fear. NOT QUITE. There was a good deal of old fashioned socialism in Naziism. Isn't close state supervision and sometimes ownership of the means of production socialism? Old age Pensions? They were uncommon and scocialistic at the time. The Volkswagen? "People's Car" produced at Hitler's orders? There are numerous other examples. Hitler's Germany grew right out of Bismarck's Germany. One of the prime intentions there was defanging the socialists by adopting their programs. Stalin was in charge of Russia and everyone was worried about communism too.. They were? Communists were nearly as common as desks in the FDR Administration. The US was rather friendly with Joe. And Joe McCarthy has been shown to have been at least right on the concept by former KGB files that fell into US hands after the fall of the Soviet Empire. The US gov't WAS in fact riddled with Communists. Read "The Sword and The Sheild" by Christopher Andrew and former K.G.B. officer, Vasily Mitrokhin. amazon.com Vasili Mitrokhin was head archivist of the KGB's First Chief Directorate until he retired in 1985. He regularly removed key files from storage, copied down their contents on pieces of paper, smuggled them past the security guards, took them to his home, and typed up verbatim transcripts of his handwritten notes. In 1992, "he travelled to Latvia, taking thousands of pages of his documents with him. He walked into the American embassy in Riga and asked if he could defect.... Incredibly, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) officers at the embassy were not interested.... The documents he had were clearly not originals and could easily have been fakes.... "Undeterred, Mitrokhin went to the British embassy," where a Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) officer "spotted his potential. After a series of in-depth interviews and consultations with headquarters, Mitrokhin was formally accepted as an MI6 agent.... Within weeks of his defection, MI6 carried out a delicate operation to remove the files [hidden in Mitrokhin's house and garden].... The classified files went back to the 1930s.... "[S]enior intelligence officers say that the files have generated hundreds of new leads and could lead to a spate of new espionage prosecutions.... Some of Mitrokhin's information helped to convict Robert Lipka, a former clerk at the National Security Agency. He had spied for the Russians in the late 1960s but had evaded FBI surveillance until Mitrokhin came in. He is now serving an 18-year sentence. "Another case that has been reopened is that of Felix Bloch, the highest-ranking State Department official ever investigated for espionage. He was fired in 1989 and stripped of his pension, but the FBI never had enough evidence to charge him." intellit.muskingum.edu jfklancer.com nzherald.co.nz BBC News: "UK Politics Former MPs named as spies" news.bbc.co.uk House Resolution 380 Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives concerning the location and removal of weapons caches placed in the United States by the Russian or Soviet Government. Whereas General Alexander Lebed, Secretary of the Russian Security Council, told a United States congressional delegation in May 1997 that an audit of Russia's nuclear stockpile found that dozens of atomic demolition units (often referred to as `nuclear suitcases') were unaccounted for and could be in terrorist hands; Whereas the Russian Government has denied the existence of any such nuclear suitcases and the United States administration has stated that there is no reason not to believe the Russian Government; Whereas Alexei Yablokov, a former Member of the Russian Security Council, in testimony before the Military Research and Development Subcommittee of the Committee on Armed Services on October 2, 1997, supported General Lebed's claims that Russia had in fact manufactured nuclear suitcase weapons; Whereas General Lebed, in testimony before that subcommittee on March 19, 1998, publicly acknowledged the existence of Russian nuclear suitcase weapons for sabotage purposes; Whereas Stanislav Lunev, the highest ranking GRU defector in the United States, testified before that subcommittee that while he was stationed at the Russian Embassy in the United States, he was assigned the task of identifying sites for the pre-positioning of man-portable nuclear weapons in the United States and was specially trained to disguise and camouflage such weapons thomas.loc.gov Churchill was rather seriously concerned about the Communists. He was largely ignored during the critical period. Other than Churchill, Hitler WAS the only one worried about Communism.