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Politics : Just the Facts, Ma'am: A Compendium of Liberal Fiction -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Suma who wrote (27880)	1/29/2005 7:07:49 PM
From: DavesM	Respond to of 90947

There was nothing conservative about the Nazi party. And yes, I believe you are naive. The United States was friendly toward the Soviet Union because Nazi Germany attacked the Soviet Union before declaring war on the United States. Until Germany invaded the Soviet Union, the Soviets and American Communists were against America's support of Britain (in WWII). In fact, until Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, the Soviets and Germans had a similar relationship as did the Germans and the Japanese. Remember, WWII was touched off by the German invasion of Poland. Also remember, the Soviets and Germans invaded Poland, together - the Germans taking the western half, and the Soviets the eastern. The reason that Americans (and McCarthy, who was probably spoon fed information from Hoover - who had intercepted and decoded Soviet communications to its spy network in America) reacted as they did toward communists, is that by the late 40's and early 50's, it was clear that there were more than a few Americans (some high government officials) taht were actually spies for the USSR. FDR knew there were Soviet spies in his Administration, he just didn't give a damm.

To: Suma who wrote (27880)	1/29/2005 8:05:46 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 90947

Am I naive or is this not your perspective ? You are naive. Amazingly so. The intent and purpose of the American Communist Party never changed during thw entire Cold War: they spied on the US and, if it ever became possible, intended to seize control of the US gov't. They were funded by Moscow. That is proven and is not subject to debate. For a party of their supposed size, they were AMAZINGLY wealthy. I never thought Nazi equals leftist. And yet the fact is that compared to the US or Britain at the time, Nazi Germany WAS quite socialistic. Intentionally so. I always said it was at RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVE party. Am I a Nazi? Buschman? Jagfan? wstera? longnshort? Dierks? JLA? Karin? sandintoes? The intent of that remark is quite often to imply your opponent is just that. If you think so, I can produce some of the "debates" I used to have with Evil Vermin. Believe me, I was far from being on his side. Graiine doesn't like being reminded of it now, but she once commended me for one of my attacks on Evil. Hitler thought them sub human and three million Soviet prisoners of war were exterminated. Hitler thought gays subhuman. Does that mean gays are Communists? Remember Russia did terribly in it's war with Finland Yes. They did extremelt poorly with what appeared to be a 3rd-rate power, but one prepared and ready and willing to defend its liberty. and there were many Americans who thought we never should have sided with Russia in the war. I lived with a family who thought that we should have gone along with Germany.. There were many Americans who sided with Russia too. They were commonly Communists. It was not a BAD thing in the forties to be friendly toward communism.. Oh. OK. Then it was not a BAD thing to be friendly with Saddam when we had problems with Iran either, was it? You SURE you want to push that point? It seems that when Stalin's attitude toward us changed and sharing stopped and we developed the A BOMB that the atmosphere changed. It should never have been particularly friendly. Stalin was as genocidal and ruthless a dictator as Stalin. And, in spite of its alliance with the USSR, the US officially NEVER had any intention of sharing the Bomb with Russia. It was STOLEN by spies were American Communists- -agents of a foreign gov't. I remember in 1948 professors having to take the Loyalty Oath. This was a big Ado at college.. When you look at their positions of influence and Communist philosophy (remember "The Dictatorship of the Proletariat"?), maybe that was justified. Do you think it acceptable now for a professor to teach that all Muslims should be exterminated? The government started to become Repressive... How so? I remember very few arrests or trials? I know some professors who refused to sign on matter of principle.. It was an antithesis to being an American. To be asked to certify that you are not an agent of a foreign gov't when taking a gov't job? McCarthy started making head lines about Communism. I think that he was a drama Queen. No doubt. He lied too and was clearly inconsistent. He was anti-Communist and a good part of the reason was political popularity. It dies seem like he was on the right track, though. There was in fact Communist infiltration of the gov't. and I never believed that that form of Government threated us Suma, THE USSR WAS A DICTATORSHIP! STALIN MURDERED AN ESTIMATED 20 MILLION RUSSIANS IN COLD BLOOD FOR NO CRIME! Need I say more? BETTER DEAD THAN RED BETTER DEAD THAN RED. They can have American democracy when they take it from my cold dead fingers. We were the ones with the A BOMB, I believe Americans who fed Russia information thought that they deserved it as they had fought with us in the war and had been responsible for the Allied victory along with us. They did it to advance Communist purposes, Suma. Face the facts. Many of them, such as Richard Feynman, Harold Urey, Ernest Lawrence, Robert Oppenheimer, Leo Szilard, Eugene Wigner, Otto Frisch, Felix Bloch, Niels Bohr, Emilio Segre, James Franck, Enrico Fermi, and Edward Teller (world famous physicists all) participated in the Manhattan Project and DID NOT do so. And Oppenheimer was later barred from such work. Yet he STILL did not turn traitor. So you think having a common enemy justifies giving them the bomb? Should we have given it to Saddam? The Rosenberg's were electrocuted because they passed along the TOP SECRET.. Allegedly. Not "allegedly". They did it. It's recorded in the KGB's own files. I do not believe that persons friendly to Russia were friendly to encourage the over throw of our Democratic form of government. Rather they saw us turning our back on an ally. Depends on how friendly they were. If they engaged in espionage, they deserved a DP. Should we have sent in the US army in 1991 to prop the Commissars so we didn't abandon a gov't that once was an "ally"?

To: Suma who wrote (27880)	1/30/2005 11:53:35 PM
From: Peter Dierks	Respond to of 90947

Suma: You were debating it with me until you lost my interest. Some of us value our time. Message 20996911 Every socialist I have ever read or discussed politics appeared to be a leftist. The Nationalist Socialist party seemed to fit into the mold. Hitler grew up a poor child of a widowed mother. His father died when he was young. He always had a chip about not having as much as others. His solution was to destroy the Jews. Visible Jews were generally working merchants. Often they sacrificed for years, to build their wealth. Having sacrificed, they eventually became able to afford things that young Adolph's mother could not. Jealousy was probably a big factor in his life. He probably felt that they were rich, and that their riches came from some unfair means. What was his solution? If you killed the Jews, the "tax" of their unfair wealth accumulation would be spread among the rest of the people. This is called redistribution. In America, the Great Society was a redistribution scheme. Clinton's "targeted" tax cuts were redistribution. I could discuss everything between that reinforces the list, but that should not be necessary. Those two are just bookends on sixty years of Democrat redistributionism. To summarize using a syllogism: Hitler called himself a socialist. Hitler behaved like a socialist. The NAZI party was founded by and controlled by Hitler. Socialists are similar to Democrats. Democrats call themselves leftists. Therefore, Nazis were leftists. Your argument about a fulcrum is centered on the assumption that the center is well balanced and solid. In short a pivot point. The left, right and center are all malleable, and subject to changing needs and demands. It is probably valid for you, it just is not convincing to me.