Going back in time a bit here, you may find the following interesting.
forums.delphiforums.com
Quote: "When was the last time before 911 that a steel building fell in a pancake fashion?"
McCormick Place in Chicago, January 16, 1967....320,000 square foot exhibition hall with a roof that was supported by 18 steel trusses on 60 foot centers. Collapsed within a half an hour of initial fire ignition. There are many, many more, but all it takes is one to win an argument. And before you start stuttering "yeah buts", I am going to reference your statement in Message #2881.6 : "No steel building HAS EVER collapsed due to fire."
Quote: "How is it possible for a steel building to fall at free fall speeds?"
WTF do you mean how is it possible? I don't think a building can exactly pop a parachute.... any object, whether steel structural components, rocks, or chocolate freaking Easter eggs are going to fall at a velocity proportional to their weight and to the distance they have to fall....once you wake up at the crack of noon and spark off your first joint of the day, look up the term "terminal velocity".
I broke out one of my fire service texts that I mentioned previously, and I'm going to state some facts for you to chew on. This book is called "Building Construction for the Fire Service, Third Edition." It is wriiten by Francis L. Branigan, and was published by the National Fire Protection Association in 1993 (pssst..that was during the Clinton Administration, so I don't think this is a Neocon propaganda document).
From Chapter 7, "Steel Construction", page 255, subtopic "Fire Characteristics", starting with the third paragraph I will quote Dr. Branigan: " The characteristics [of steel] which concern firefighters are: 1. The coefficient of expansion of steel is such that substantial elongation can take place in a steel member at ORDINARY FIRE TEMPERATURES -ABOUT 1000 degrees F. (emphasis mine). This elongation may cause the disruption of other structural components, such as masonary abutting the ends of the steel. (Gee, 1000 degrees is normal fire temps..imagine that)
2. "If the steel cannot elongate because of restraint, it will buckle or overturn. This can be particularly significant when other components rest on a steel member. Often steel members, usually beams, are inserted into an otherwise combustible building to provide a greater span than a wooden beam could provide or to support an opening in a brick wall. Such unprotected beams can be the origination of a collapse.
3. When heated to higher temperatures, above 1300 dgrees F, WHICH ARE COMMON AT MAJOR FIRES (emphasis again mine...gee, do you think WTC was a major fire?), the yield point of steel is drastically reduced. At this temperature, steel members may fail, BRINGING ABOUT A COLLAPSE OF THE STRUCTURE (emphasis mine)
4. The temperature above refers to structural steel. Cold-drawn steel such as steel tendons used for tensioned concrete and for excavation tiebacks and elevator cables will at about 800 degrees F. THESE CHARACTERISTICS REVEAL THAT STEEL IS TRULY A THERMOPLASIC MATERIAL. (empahsis mine)
Now, I guarantee-heck I would bet my next month's pay that temperatures of of 1300 degrees were reached EASILY. And these two quotes from pevious posts form you and Molly 8:
Quote: "The aviation fuel was used up when the plane burned."
Quote: "Jet fuel burns off quickly"
It doesn't burn off so quickly that the damage wasn't already done, not to mention the tons and tons of plastics that were ignited, plus the additional combustibles introduced as plane debris. And also keep in mind that the structure was weakened by the trauma of the impact even before the fire introduced additional stress. BTW, as far as your skepticism at the achievement of a temperature of 1500 degrees: at the Worchester Cold Storage warehouse fire in Mass. a few years ago in which 7 firefighters were killed, temperatures of 3000 degrees were achieved.
As far as your link that compared the crash of a B-25 bomber into the Empire State Building with the WTC, I found this reference by Dr. Branigan in Chapter 11, "High-Rise Construction" on page 462, paragraph 4 to be interesting:
"Since tis time there has been a definate push to lighten and thus reduce the costs of buildings. The Empire State Building WEIGHS ABOUT 23 POUNDS PER CUBIC FOOT. A typical modern high rise WEIGHS APPROXIMATELY 8 POUNDS PER CUBIC FOOT."
As I stated before, you CAN NOT compare apples to oranges...the ONLY thing these two incidents had in common was that they both were buildings that had aircraft fly into them, just as an apple and an orange are both fruits. Empire State is a much more substantially constructed building, not to mention that it was stuck by a much smaller aircraft with a smaller fuel load at much lower velocity than WTC. A plane with 2 radial engines versus one with at least 2 jet ones? A B-25's maximum speed is somewhere close to what a modern jetliner's stall speed is, nevermind what it's cruise speed would be when it flew into the side of a building.
Oh yeah...that picture you posted in Message # 2881.21? That building is the First Interstate Bank Building in LA, and that fire happened on May 4, 1988. Dr. Branigan presents this as a case study in Chapter 11 "High Rise Construction" on page 506 and makes an interesting observation in paragraph 8:
"The spray-on fireproofing was cementatious rather than asbestos. THE STEEL STRUCTURE SURVIVED WITHOUT STRUCTURAL DAMAGE." (emphasis mine)
Gee, they coated the FIB's columns with cement rather than asbestos like they did at WTC. Like I have told you before, there is no grand conspiracy, you are simply omitting facts to try and support your hysterical arguments. If you want your positions to be credible, at least make comparisons to building that share common construction factors and incident parameters.
And one more time...you still have not revealed your qualifications for making the inflammatory statements you have made, other than a talent for pasting web site addresses. If you can present anything to support your arguments a little more scholarly than what you have so far, then bring it on.
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