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To: zonder who wrote (28742)	3/25/2005 10:44:22 AM
From: 10K a day	Respond to of 306849

>Imagine passing a bowling ball through your bowels No thank u!

To: zonder who wrote (28742)	3/25/2005 11:02:12 AM
From: bentway	Respond to of 306849

OT: Besides the downsides of childbirth itself, having a child is at least a 20 year committment, if not lifelong. This is why I can't understand how any woman with a chance of becoming pregnant could support the Republican "right-to-life", anti-abortion and anti-birth control positions. These people believe that once a woman is pregnant, the fetus OWNS her body, and her life for the next 20 years. Yet, they also want to make birth control as difficult as possible. All to promote the "miracle" of childbirth!

To: zonder who wrote (28742)	3/25/2005 11:02:52 AM
From: shades	Respond to of 306849

Why do I have to convince the woman to not murder my child? If we agree to have children, we engage in the act, she gets pregnant, then from pressure from her father she kills my baby - why is that acceptable? What of my son? I was hoping for a boy. Why couldn't I stop this? Pregnancy is hard, she wanted kids though, I did too, we got engaged and had sex with the belief that we both were gonna honor our committment to each other to have the baby and love it and support it, we conceived a baby, then from pressure from her father she murdered it and I had no way to keep my son alive. I see your point, you are arguing from the side of the pregnant mother passing bowling balls, but I want you 2 see the other 2 viewpoints from the heartbroken father and murdered son. In the article I posted the authors, some of them women, argue that after you willingly choose to have sex and conceive a baby, you have to consider reproductive rights for both men and women. You do not think that is fair and ethical? At what point has someone been wronged and cheated? If she did not want my baby, why let me make the investment of my heart and time and semen to produce it, if pregnancy is hard does that justify her killing my son? Extending that logic out, motherhood is hard - so better to murder your 5 year old child than suffer all that crap. It gets back to a fundamental issue, where does her rights begin and mine and my sons end. Apparently society thinks until the baby is born, she has 100% of the rights and me and my son have zero - that is not fair. Where do we draw the line, were should she not have the ability to murder my child - before we have sex she can say no, after we have sex and conceive she can committ an abortion, after the birth she can drown the baby in a tub. At what point is it right? I think you want to argue after the birth is when she loses 100% rights to decide what happens, but I want to argue like with the article, after consensual sex and conception she loses sole rights to determine the future. I don't feel a society that views abortions as acceptable birth control is a good one. Even if birth is hard and like passing a bowling ball, after we had sex and I was buying all my friends cigars to celebrate my hopeful sons birth, why did she get to kill it and there was nothing I could do to save it? You really feel it is ok and fair for her to abort the baby against her mates wishes and her initial commitment to thier child? I guess if you do, at what point is the abortion fair to the new baby and the father - third trimester? second? first? Her and I had put down some money for a house, that was easy to divide - we got the money back and she got half and I got half, or I could have given her some money and kept the house or her give me some and she kept it, but I am not allowed to give her money and get my son. So in her changing her mind, say she gets the house, the car, the choice of wether our son lived or died, I think society views it is not fair with the house and the car - that should be equally divided, but OK with the baby. I disagree. After her, I no longer would trust a surrogate mother to honor her consensual agreement and as you say, I am not going to be able to lock the woman up in the dungeon throughout the pregnancy - after my experience - you think I should? You must not read the news I do where many surrogate mothers change thier mind on absolving their rights. I cannot go through the depression that caused again in my life, it was too traumatic. I don't want women to hurt in pregnancy and wish lifegiving activities such as birth were not so painful and ruinous to some, but she entered into an agreement with me to bear our son, then she changed her mind from pressure from her father and now our son is dead - not because we couldn't afford our child, not because we didn't both initially want one or that her pregnancy would be hard and bowling balls scared her, not because there wasn't a willing person to take the son and absolve her of motherly obligation - my son is dead because her father didn't like my religious views and his seed was not to bear children with me and I wasn't going to change my beliefs, and this is completely acceptable to you and I wish it wasn't. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree my friend. Cheers

To: zonder who wrote (28742)	3/30/2005 2:32:43 PM
From: Amy J	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

OT Do you have ANY idea whatsoever on what pregnancy does to a woman? Have you ever had two full months of gut-wrenching sickness that left you so unable to eat anything that you had to be hospitalized so you can be fed intravenously? Can you even imagine gaining 15-20 kgs, your feet growing up one size, your internal organs squeezing to one side so that you are constantly constipated not to mention the breathing difficulties towards the end? Do please look up things that regularly happen during birth, such as 3rd & 4th degree tears, scar tissue, along with the words episiotomy and fistula. ---------------------------------------------------------- I appreciate your sharing the story. One never hears a description of this, society hides this doesn't it? Congratulations for writing a very open post. You've got strength. Regards, Amy J