WHERE are you getting all this information?
As I said, most recently and clearly from that doctor I mentioned who was one of the court appointed neurologists.
From the show transcript:
Terri Schiavo down to her last days, possibly her final hours. As we just heard, Terri‘s family saying she‘s alert, still very much alive, trying to communicate with her father. A few doctors say it‘s possible Terri has been misdiagnosed and not in a persistent vegetative state, but rather in a state of what they call minimal consciousness but even that would mean she‘s not communicating.
The overwhelming majority in the medical community say Terri has close to no brain activity and has no chance of regaining awareness. Joining me now is a doctor who actually examined Terri Schiavo in 2002 and testified to her condition. Dr. Ronald Cranford is the assistant chief of neurology at the Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis as well as a faculty member at the University of Minnesota‘s Center for Bioethics. Thanks very much for coming on the program. We appreciate it.
All right. So you are one of the...
DR. RONALD CRANFORD, UNIV. OF MN NEUROLOGIST: It‘s a pleasure.
ABRAMS: ... you‘re one of the few people who has actually examined Terri Schiavo and you‘re hearing all of these people who are coming on from the sidelines saying, well, I can tell that she‘s—she has been misdiagnosed, et cetera. How confident are you in your diagnosis and why?
CRANFORD: I‘m extremely confident. I think at the time of the trial in 2002 there had been eight neurologists who examined her. Four doctors caring for Terri Schiavo from 1990 to 2002 and three neurologists (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and of those eight neurologists total, seven of them said beyond any doubt whatsoever Terri is in a vegetative state. Her CAT scan shows severe atrophy or shrinkage of the brain. Her EEG is flat and there‘s absolutely no doubt that she‘s been in a permanent vegetative state ever since 1990. There‘s no doubt whatsoever, Dan.
ABRAMS: Doctor, let me read you this from Dr. Cheshire. I know you‘ve heard about him. He‘s from the Mayo Clinic and he is the reason that they appealed to the federal courts saying, look we‘ve got a doctor who is saying the following.
“There remain huge uncertainties in regard to Terri‘s true neurological status. I believe that, within a reasonable degree of medical certainty there is a great likelihood that Terri is in a minimally conscious state rather than a persistent vegetative state.”
Your response.
CRANFORD: Well actually if you read his report, he says she has no visual tracking and she has no conscious awareness which are the cardinal signs of the vegetative state, so I don‘t think there‘s any doubt she‘s in a vegetative state. He never examined her.
He did an interview with her for 90 minutes, which—observing her. He never viewed her CAT scans. He makes no mention of her EEG, so while he‘s a reputable neurologist, perhaps, at the Mayo Clinic, his report means absolutely nothing. It‘s a desperation, last minute move by the governor who just doesn‘t know what else to do, so he brings in a Christian fundamentalist neurologist. It‘s just not true.
ABRAMS: And this is what—you know, again, I feel for the parents here and I‘m going to play a sound bite...
CRANFORD: So do I.
ABRAMS: ... from Terri‘s...
CRANFORD: Yes.
ABRAMS: ... father here and...
CRANFORD: Yes.
ABRAMS: ... I want you to listen to it and just tell me if it‘s even medically possible that this is the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHINDLER: She‘s alive and she‘s fighting like hell to live, and she‘s begging for help. She‘s still communicating, still responding. She‘s emaciated, but she‘s responsive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Doctor, I mean you hate to say it but that‘s just a father wishful thinking, isn‘t it?
CRANFORD: I hate to say it but it‘s a father wishful thinking. These are sincere caring people. I think the Schindlers as opposed to the right to life activists and the president and Congress and all the others, I think they really believe that she‘s interacting. They really believe she‘s been denied medical care, and I think about sympathizes with their concerns.
This is a loving, caring family but they‘re wrong. And they‘ve known they‘ve been wrong. She‘s been diagnosed a vegetative state ever since the early 1990‘s. They were told that repeatedly in the early 1990‘s. It‘s wishful thinking on the part of parents who dearly love their daughter and don‘t want her to be in the vegetative state she‘s in. But Dan, there‘s really no doubt whatsoever.
No credible neurologist has come along who‘s examined her who‘s said she‘s not in a vegetative state. It‘s just what they want to see. And you can see how scary the tapes are that show her apparently interacting with her eyes open. But her eyes are open, but she‘s not even looking at her mother when you look at those tapes.
(CROSSTALK)
CRANFORD: So I‘m afraid they‘re just wrong.
ABRAMS: I want to very quickly—I‘m going to ask you about the CAT scan in a second. But at the...
CRANFORD: Yes.
ABRAMS: ... trial where Judge Greer evaluated this, were the neurologists actually split as to whether she was in a persistent vegetative state?
CRANFORD: No, not the credible neurologists. There were (UNINTELLIGIBLE) neurologists three who agreed and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) court appointed expert and the trial court judge just didn‘t believe Dr. Hammersfahr. He felt it was bogus. He called him a self-promoter and he said he had nothing to support his position. So no, there was no split at the trial...
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Let‘s talk...
(CROSSTALK)
CRANFORD: Go ahead.
ABRAMS: I just want—I‘m running out of time and we‘ve talked extensively about Judge Greer‘s opinion, which I have supported on this program. All right, let‘s talk about the CAT scan. You actually have the CAT scan. This is it. This is the CAT scan of Terri Schiavo, is that correct?
CRANFORD: Yes, this is a CAT scan of Terri Schiavo taken in 2002, the most recent CAT scan done on her, 2002.
ABRAMS: Tell us what it means.
CRANFORD: Well it shows extremely severe atrophy. Of course, we don‘t have one to compare it to, but where those black areas are, that should be white. That should be cerebral cortex, and so really there is no cerebral cortex left. It‘s just a shrinkage of the cerebral cortex. It‘s a thin band of white on the outside and any neurologist or any radiologist looking at those CAT scans will tell you that her atrophy could not be more severe than it is. So even if she were mentally conscious, which she‘s not, she‘s irreversible. She‘s been like this for 15 years, Dan, and that CAT scan shows the most extreme severe atrophy of the higher centers of the brain.
ABRAMS: And what about those who say that there should have been more tests? That she‘s never had a PET scan. That she needs another MRI.
CRANFORD: Well she doesn‘t need an MRI because a MRI will not show any more damage than this C.T. and you can again check with any radiologists. They‘ll tell you this CAT scan is more than adequate. A PET scan will show (UNINTELLIGIBLE) activity.
I consider the C.T.—PET scan in 2002, but the only place in the country that would do a reliable one is New York City and I don‘t think back then they would ever take her to New York City for a PET scan and you know what, it‘s just a stalling technique by the pro-lifers. It has nothing to do with Terri‘s condition. They know she‘s in a vegetative state except for the family and a PET scan with anything to what we know already and that was a flat EEG and not with that...
ABRAMS: All right.
CRANFORD: ... not with that CAT scan showing atrophy...
ABRAMS: Very quickly a lot of my viewers asking if she‘s not in pain as you and many others have said, why is she getting any morphine?
CRANFORD: Well we commonly do that because it‘s a comfort to the family and I will commonly give morphine to patients who are in a vegetative—I explain to the family that they‘re not suffering but sometimes it helps the family just to know the patient is getting a little morphine. So that‘s perfectly an accepted standard of care to give morphine to a patient who‘s dying in a vegetative state of dehydration.
I‘ve done that on many, many occasions and that‘s perfectly acceptable to do that. It‘s not for the patient. The patient is not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) pain. It‘s to benefit the family and to relieve them and there‘s no problems giving morphine in a situation like this...
ABRAMS: Very quickly, you are at the center of a case—we‘ve never received as many e-mails as we have on this case, this sort of divide and the passion in this case. You‘re in the center of it.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: You‘re the doctor who so many people are relying on in this case. How has that been for you?
CRANFORD: Well, I‘m not the doctor. I mean they‘ve had two other neurologists included a court-appointed expert...
ABRAMS: Fair enough, one of the doctors.
CRANFORD: One of the seven doctors who actually examined her who said beyond any doubt she‘s in a vegetative state. So there‘s just no doubt about the diagnosis. I know there‘s sympathy for the family. When you see those pictures, it looks like Terri is interacting, but do you know what? She‘s really not. That‘s what the vegetative state is. It looks like they‘re interacting, but they‘re really not. And there‘s nothing I can do to change that.
ABRAMS: Yes. All right. Dr. Cranford thanks a lot for taking time to come on the program. Appreciate it.
CRANFORD: My pleasure, Dan.
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