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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Tom Clarke who wrote (100261)4/4/2005 1:20:55 PM
From: Grainne  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
I don't think you fully understand how Eire and Northern Ireland are two totally separate countries, with different cultures. I've had friends who grew up in the south, and what they learn in school is their own history and struggle for independence. Young people there hardly even think about Northern Ireland. Very little is taught about the Troubles in their schools, and there really isn't much focus on it in their society, except that in the border areas and in some parts of the west, there is a significant IRA presence. But that is not reflected in the way history is taught; it is more that there are certain bars that they hang out in, and it is very subtle because they are mostly involved in smuggling. So it would actually be quite unusual for someone from the south to be keenly interested in what happens in Northern Ireland, which is usually a mess and quite a disappointing situation over time if you follow it closely.

Bono risked his record sales by taking a conscious position AGAINST the war in Northern Ireland (so you can stop accusing him of being a coward or whatever that was supposed to imply). Before he sings Sunday Bloody Sunday he shouts out "This is not a rebel song" to make that very clear. U2 politically is anti-war and devoutly Christian. I love Sinead O'Connor but she is a total mess emotionally, and has often taken positions simply to rebel against authority, since she was so mentally damaged by abuse from her mother, and went pretty much totally insane. The example of ripping up the Pope's photo on Saturday Night Live and rejecting her religious background, but then becoming a member of a far right Catholic cult would be a prime example. Definitely in her favor, she is a vegan, and of course I have a fondness in my heart for her just for that.

I am sure that U2 has considered all the implications of Northern Ireland, and is indeed preaching peace there by taking the stance that the violence is horrible. And I am certain that world peace is a much more important thing to consider than the fate of a few million people involved in an ugly tribal conflict that has gone on for centuries, and whose leaders have rejected power sharing by continuing to run a huge, extremely violent criminal enterprise.



To: Tom Clarke who wrote (100261)4/4/2005 1:53:31 PM
From: Grainne  Respond to of 108807
 
I think this is an interesting article about the decline of Catholicism in Ireland. Of course it totally ignores all the scandals involving priests and nuns abusing children physically and sexually, the Bishop of Galway hiding a child and supporting him and paying off his mother with Church funds, etc. that also drove the Irish from the hypocrisy of many Catholic role models:

timesonline.co.uk

The Sunday Times - Britain



April 03, 2005

Even he couldn’t halt the slow drift of Catholic Ireland
We like our religion but we like shopping more, says Tom Inglis



I WONDER whether the Pope’s death will be covered in Hello! People love to read about the stars, about how they do the same things we do, like getting married, getting pregnant, having babies, furnishing a new home. But death is different: the stars don’t tell us how to die. Death and dying are not sexy subjects and people want to hide away from them. Pope John Paul II has become an exemplary prophet of death. He is a reminder of the fragility of the materialist consumer bubble in which we live.

It will be a brief reminder. The world will consume his death in the same way that it consumes other media messages. Like distracted lemmings, we will continue to charge down the hill towards the shopping malls and town centres that now dominate the Catholic island of Ireland. Unfortunately, there is little that Pope John Paul II could have done about this. He has shown us how to deal with deathly disease, pain and suffering, how to die gracefully. But his attempt to show us how to live our lives has fallen on deaf ears.



The Catholic Ireland that the Pope came to visit and revive in 1979 was already dying. It revived a little in the aftermath of his visit; there was a small increase in vocations. But then the inexorable decline continued. Now the priests, nuns and brothers who once dominated the towns and villages of Ireland are dying out.

Of course, people still go to Mass, they still like being Catholics. But they don’t really listen to the Pope and his bishops any more. Priests, nuns and brothers may be holy people living exemplary lives but for many their moral advice, especially regarding sex, is past its sell-by-date.

Sex, as much as materialism, was the downfall of Catholic Ireland. Too many young women could no longer toe the strict moral line about artificial contraception. They refused to be like their mothers. They did not want a clatter of unwanted pregnancies. They wanted to control their fertility and their lives.

The young women of Ireland did not turn their backs on Pope John Paul II, they simply stopped listening to him. To make matters worse, they were encouraged by their mothers — the mothers who had given birth to Catholic Ireland. They created the Catholic homes in which the faith was embodied. They taught their children prayers, got them out to Mass and put them on their knees to say the rosary. But they no longer fostered the vocations on which the church depended. They allowed their children to worship Madonna rather than Our Lady.

A culture of hedonism and narcissism — fed by the market and the media — began to seep into Ireland. The Pope may have been a great spiritual and moral leader, but he had no idea what it was like to live in the modern world. The world of spending, working and commuting, and getting to the top, is out of sync with the spiritual and moral order advocated by Pope John Paul. How, in a world of self-fulfilment, can people be expected to practise self-denial, to surrender themselves to God? From the 1960s, the plain people of Ireland began to abandon the idea of living in frugal comfort in cosy homesteads. They no longer wished to be an island of saints and scholars. They didn’t want to save anyone. They wanted the comfort and mod-cons of life — televisions, fridges, washing machines, cars, central heating, foreign holidays, fancy food.

And so the plain people of Ireland gradually removed the statues and pictures of Our Lady, the Sacred Heart and all the Catholic icons that adorned their homes. Instead they put up modern pictures, and images that looked wonderful but said nothing. They took down the crucifixes and, as in Dublin, they put up spikes that said everything and nothing. The Catholics of Ireland took up the anchor and began to drift on the sea of materialism.

Pope John Paul II knew what was happening. It grieved him deeply. He wrote some wonderful encyclicals, but they no longer inspired most Irish Catholics.

And so the faith began to drain out of homes, and from social, political and economic life. People no longer understood their everyday lives as Catholics.

It was the media that put the first nail in the coffin of Catholic Ireland. The church preached against materialism but it had no command over radio and televison, which relentlessly told people to go out and consume. The message was simple and consistent: you have to have, you really need. Instead of self- denial the young people of Ireland were taught to be selfish, hedonistic, liberal individuals. The church never learnt to deal with it.

The battle for Catholic Ireland was fought out in the 1980s. They lost the fight over contraception, but victories in the abortion and divorce referendums were encouraging. Still, the signs of decay were everywhere. Young people were voting with their feet. Going to Mass became more of a lifestyle choice than a moral imperative. Politicians had to respond to the mood of the people. They, and the state, became more daring.

In the 1990s it all changed. Sex was no longer confined to marriage, contraceptives were sold like sweets, single women could have babies without being sent to the Magdalen Laundry, and gay men and women came out of the closet. When the Irish people voted in divorce in 1996, they also voted for an end to the marriage between church and state.

While traditional, holy Catholic Ireland may be dying, it is far from dead.

Ireland is still one of the most religious and Catholic countries in Europe, after Poland and Malta. The vast majority of Irish people identify themselves as Catholics. Up to half still attend Mass once a week.

Most children are still baptised into the faith and go on to attend Catholic schools. Like their parents they will probably get married and be buried within the church. They like being Catholic; it is part of their heritage. But like the Irish language, it is something they support without practising.

They also liked Pope John Paul II. He was a good guy. But, hey, life goes on. Someone has to do the shopping.







To: Tom Clarke who wrote (100261)4/4/2005 1:59:05 PM
From: Grainne  Respond to of 108807
 
Oh, this is fun! Bono and the Pope! Both nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize this year. Speaking of which, why are you so hard on Bono but not on the Pope? Why didn't the Pope concentrate on ending the conflict in Northern Ireland? Does that mean he is a lesser man?

story.news.yahoo.com

Bono: Pope Was Catholic Church's 'Best Front Man'

DUBLIN (Reuters) - Pope John Paul II was the "best front man" the Roman Catholic Church ever had, U2's own front man Bono said Sunday.

The men, both named as nominees for this year's Nobel Peace Prize, campaigned together to end world debt. The lead singer of the Irish rock band once famously gave the Pope his trademark wraparound sunglasses to put on during a meeting, dubbing him "the first funky Pontiff."

"A great show man, a great communicator of ideas even if you didn't agree with all of them, a great friend to the world's poor which is how I got to meet him," Bono said in a statement.

"Without John Paul II its hard to imagine the Drop the Debt campaign succeeding as it did," Bono said, referring to an activist movement which seeks to convince wealthy nations to cancel the debts of the world's poorest countries.

The Pope met Bono, along with other pop stars, aid workers and economists, in 1999 to push for rich nations to write off third world debt by the year 2000 and demanded to know why the West was dragging its feet.

"How could you turn this man down?" Bono said at the time.

A fan of popular culture, the Pope once invited Bob Dylan to perform for him at a church congress in Bologna and joined the Eurythmics, Alanis Morissette and Lou Reed at a concert in Rome in aid of debt reduction.

In January last year at the Vatican, the pontiff even presided over a performance of breakdancers from his home country of Poland.