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To: ManyMoose who wrote (100815)4/9/2005 2:10:23 PM
From: cosmicforce  Respond to of 108807
 
I guess the oath seems too literal and not inclusive enough, then. Too bad in hindsight. Since it is subject to misinterpretation as to what is being attested, then there should be some alteration of the oath. My grandfather and his father were both very active in the scouts and they founded many troops in California and Missouri. I've always mused since my greatgrandfather was very politically active at the time Missouri was entered into the Union that the term "Show me!" could have been partly due to him! That could be my motto.

Edit: Here it is from the Boy Scout Site (we didn't go to church and I wasn't sure about God and my family supported that):

. . . To do my duty to God . . .
Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.



To: ManyMoose who wrote (100815)4/9/2005 5:39:33 PM
From: Grainne  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
I think it is very prejudicial to exclude youths from scouting who are atheists or gay (too bad they don't catch all the troop leaders and scout management who molest young boys, though). If you read this tract that I found on the web, the scout representative is saying that if an atheist scout found a wallet, he would steal the money! I think this represents an extreme misunderstanding of atheists, who teach their children moral values just like everyone else does, and practice love and kindness and honesty just because these are the right things to do, not because there may be some reward for good behavior later (or a horrible punishment in the afterlife for bad behavior).

If I knew a child who was gung-ho to be a scout I wouldn't discourage him (I would explain the scout exclusion system, though, if the child was a relative or friend of mine.) I certainly will do everything I could to make sure that scout troops cannot benefit from public funds or charitable donations, because they don't belong associated with schools, etc. if they are exclusionary of atheist and gay children.

ATHEIST SCOUT SAYS HE'LL FIGHT DECISION TO EXPEL HIM FROM BSA

He's 19-years old, has 37 merit badges, and has served as a three-time senior patrol leader in the Boy Scouts of America. He is also an assistant Scoutmaster and field leader involved in the group's Search and Rescue program. His mom says that he doesn't smoke or take illegal drugs, and that her son expressed no interest in having a drink when he turns 21. And according to the Seattle Times, he has contributed over 1,000 hours of community service.

But the Chief Seattle Council of BSA says that it intends to expel Darrell Lambert because he does not believe in a deity. News reports say that the group, which has already come under attack for discriminating against gays, is giving Lambert a week to decide "in his heart" if he really and truly happens to be an Atheist.

"No way," Lambert told the Times. "It would be like me asking them to change their belief. It's not going to happen."

The case is just the latest in a growing controversy over the official policy of the Boy Scouts to insist that all members and leaders believe in a god.

A posting from "Scouting For All," a national organization seeking to make the BSA more inclusive by admitting homosexuals and nonbelievers, said that Lambert's Atheism was discussed at an October 12 training session for Scout Masters. The District Chairman, Glen Schmidt, reportedly said, "I asked scouts during the training if they believe in god and if they don't I boot them out. In order for scouts to become good citizens they must believe in god."

Schmidt then continued, "Anyone that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen." He delivered a homily stating that if an
Atheist happened to find a wallet laying on the ground, they would "pick it up (and) plunder the money."

Another scout leader identified as Dave Jones then reportedly told Lambert's mother, "If you have any other boys in the scouts that don't believe in god they need to be kicked out..."

It is not the first time that families who profess Atheism, or have a nonbeliever son have encountered difficulties with the Boy Scouts. "I don't see where religious beliefs come into play when we teach them to camp," remarked one parent at the Seattle meeting.

Another, referring to Mr. Lambert cited the Eagle Scout's long and impressive list of accomplishments within the organization and service to the community.

"He's willing to take care of our boys, our land, he goes and rescues our people. What more could the Boy Scouts want?"

Others said that whatever the virtues of kicking Lambert out of the group, the Seattle troop risked running afoul of the national
organization and possibly losing its charter to operate.

In 1997, Atheist parent Rob Sherman went to court as a plaintiff with his son, Ricky challenging the constitutionality of his local Illinois police department sponsoring a Boy Scouts Explorer post. The suit charged that by allowing the scouts to requiring a religious litmus test for membership, a government agency was sponsoring discrimination, and violating the separation of church and state.

The following year, the California State Supreme Court ruled in the case of twins Michael and Terry Randall who had joined the Cub Scouts at age 7. They were originally permitted to omit a religious oath, but later were rejected from participating in another Scouting program. They won their Eagle Scout badges years later as the case wound its way through the legal system, but the court declared that the BSA was immune to anti-discrimination statutes.

In June, 2000 the U.S. Supreme Court handed down its finding in the case of BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA v. DALE. The 5-4 decision upheld the right of the scouts to require prospective leaders to swear to a "Declaration of Religious Principles." Although the case involved a BSA leader, some say that questions remain whether the finding would still apply to members of the group.

One crucial issue has been whether groups like the Boy Scouts are private organizations which may have wide latitude in establishing membership criteria, or instead fall under the mantle of "public accommodations" which make them subject to civil rights laws. Critics point out that the BSA often receives sponsorship along with material and even financial aid from local and state governments. The President of the United States is designated as the "honorary chairman" of the organization, and various governmental agencies including the Department of Defense have made extensive resource available to the BSA.

That, say the critics, amounts to government-sponsored discrimination.

Communities throughout the country have weighed in on the controversy, and so has congress.

Nearly 100 municipalities have severed their official ties with the Boy Scouts, and in some cases even cut direct funding. Lawmakers have feuded over the issue as well, pushing competing bills on Capitol Hill. Some, like the "Scouts Honor Act," would have prohibited any entity receiving federal funds "to compel the Boy Scouts of America to employ, enroll, or accept as a member or volunteer an individual whose sexual orientation, sexual behavior, religious beliefs, or absence of religious beliefs is determined by the Boy Scouts of America to be inconsistent with the organization's policies, programs, morals or
mission."

Other efforts have attempted to pull the Boy Scouts special Congressional Charter.

The national Boy Scouts of America organization has remained uncompromising in its attitude toward gay and Atheist youth. In
February of this year, the BSA board adopted a resolution deeming homosexuals and nonbelievers as unfit and morally unacceptable role models for youth. The move came as local Scout Councils were demanding change within the organization, including greater autonomy for state and regional groups.

A statement from the BSA declared that "an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices. In affirming its existing standards of leadership, the board also agreed that duty to God is not a mere ideal for those choosing to associate with the Boy Scouts of America; it is an obligation, which has defined good character throughout the BSA's 92-year history."

Scott Cozza, the president of the Scouting For All group which seeks to bring tolerance into the ranks of the BSA said, "It is ironic that the BSA core value of respecting diversity is not practiced within the organization. And it's a shame that the BSA National Office is turning a deaf ear to its members."

Cozza's group is also condemning the threats to dismiss Darrel Lambert.

"I think it's horrible that the Boy Scouts of America would kick out Lambert. He is more of an Eagle Scout than many Eagle Scouts who believe in god. believing in god is not a measure of the quality of a person."

Cozza noted that the two murderers of Matthew Shepard, a gay youth, were an Eagle Scout and Mormon.

"The character of a person is seen by how a person lives his life," said Cozza. "When will the Boy Scouts of America ever learn that their policy of discrimination is a violation of their own scout oath and law, and hurts kids?"

Story from American Atheist. atheists.org



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