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Politics : Impeach George W. Bush -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Joe Btfsplk who wrote (31606)5/2/2005 11:27:23 PM
From: jttmab  Respond to of 93284
 
Just skimming, what they wrote on Stone v. Graham is just plain wrong. See: supct.law.cornell.edu

It should be noted that Patrick Henry opposed the US Constitution.

Jefferson. You sure you want to use Jefferson? His well worn bible was due to his study of the bible and it's comparison to other philosphies/religions.... He made an observation of the Jewish faith....

II. Jews.

1. Their system was Deism; that is, the belief in one only God. But their ideas of him and of his attributes were degrading and injurious.

2. Their Ethics were not only imperfect, but often irreconcilable with the sound dictates of reason and morality, as they respect intercourse with those around us; and repulsive and anti-social, as respecting other nations. They needed reformation, therefore, in an eminent degree.

angelfire.com
---------------
Other quotes from TJ..........

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
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The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

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Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
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In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
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You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819
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Then there's what he thought of the New Testament....

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
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Jefferson got a special kick out of the Apocolypse [Revelations]...

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825
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"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies" (Letter to Dr. Woods).

No doubt TJ is in hell.

So let's forget about using TJ for your case and move on to the Treaty of Tripoli, article 11....http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

What do you think As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion might mean?

jttmab

P.S. I'm not saying that there aren't other errors in your link. I just checked Stone v. Graham.



To: Joe Btfsplk who wrote (31606)5/3/2005 2:14:01 PM
From: Raymond Duray  Respond to of 93284
 
George,

Revanchist revisionism seems all the rage these days with the crazed cultist Christians.

The fact of the matter is, Church and State were designed to be separate in the U.S.A., especially in light of the horrendous and horribly idiotic wars that were fought over religion in Europe prior to the founding of the U.S.

I think it is quite sick for rightwing nutcases to try to bring back patently bad ideas like infecting our secular institutions with childishly superstitious Christianity inanity.

George, you probably are unaware of it, but many of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be Deists.
en.wikipedia.org
The modern equivalent would be the agnostics. Thomas Jefferson was a deist. In fact, he edited a version of the New Testament that re-wrote all references to Jesus Christ to reflect Christ's existence as a man and a great prophet. But not as a god. This is something that most Christians, especially the utterly naive breed of evangelicals this nation is being poisoned with today, simply do not know. Ignorance seems to be the only thing most evangelical have in common.



To: Joe Btfsplk who wrote (31606)5/12/2005 7:00:32 PM
From: jttmab  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 93284
 
Find anything factually wrong at wtv-zone.com

Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well- worn Bible: "I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."


I found that quote to be particularly interesting. It seemed an odd entry to put in a personal bible. Also, a rather obscure piece of information it would seem. Seaching over the web, I found a few references to it, but they appeared in the same context, i.e, some attempt to do a Jefferson=>Christian=>US Government.

So I said to myself...."Self. Who who be able to verify this quote?" ....ponder...ponder...ponder... lightbulb!!! Monticello! Who would better know Jefferson than the fine folks at Monticello? Did it the old fashion way, wrote them the little ditty above and asked them where I might be able to find Jefferson's bible and verify the quote. I received the following reply...

Dear Mr. ______,

First, please accept my apologies for the delay in replying to you. It has been a rather hectic few weeks here at the Jefferson Library.

As for your question, I don't find this statement in any of the sources on Jefferson and religion that I consulted; it seems to be an intriguing enough factoid that it would be mentioned, if it were true. I find a sentence in a letter he wrote to Benjamin Waterhouse 6 June 1822, "I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian." This seems to express a vaguely similar sentiment to the quote you are asking about, but is not quite the same.

If you searched our catalog, the Thomas Jefferson Portal, you would not find Jefferson's Bible; we do not have any original Jeffersonian documents here in the Jefferson Library. Some of his original books do reside in the house, but they are under the care of our Curatorial department. I contacted them and they told me that they do have a 1798 Bible that Jefferson owned, but it does not have this inscription; UVA has a copy from 1804-1809; and the Library of Congress has several copies. I checked the annotated catalog of books Jefferson sold to LC in 1815, and none of the Bibles in that group had any sort of inscription other than Jefferson's initials.

For more information, see our research report on Jefferson's religious beliefs: monticello.org

I hope you find this information helpful, and please let us know if you have further questions.

-----END of Reply-----

I trust as a good Christian, you will take further initiative and notify the appropriate web sites that they are relaying false information and any further claims that Jefferson made any such inscription in his bible, or elsewhere, would be a flagrant offense to God, Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." I'm sure they will appreciate the correction.

A Child of God,
jttmab