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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (162191)	5/16/2005 1:19:50 PM
From: michael97123	Respond to of 281500

What Sun really means is that the Jews whined about the holocaust which propelled zionism post-WW2. I wouldnt call that whining, just an act of survival to save those sorry souls who survived and were being denied entry the world over. Also I dont think there was much whining in pre-WW2 europe by jews over what had happened 2000 years earlier. He, like Marcos, have both condemned Jews for being human and wanting to survive. 2 peas in a pod.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (162191)	5/16/2005 1:20:53 PM
From: bentway	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

"The Jews didn't get Israel by whining. " I think they did some brilliantly timed whining, post Holocaust. Extremely effective whining, that won them a behavioral pass that is to a much lesser extent, still being granted today.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (162191)	5/16/2005 1:33:14 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>> The Jews didn't get Israel by whining... Not entirely true. If organizing was all it took, how come they did not do it any sooner during the 4000 years? They whined, they cried, they nursed their wounds, they internalized a lot of emotions from compassion for underdogs to cold hatred. This whining and nursing of their wounds kept them going. If instead they had been "organized" in centuries past and migrated to say some island in the south pacific, there would have been no Israel today (then again, they might have been a lot further ahead). Eventually the world conditions changed and having been at it for so long the Jews got smart enough to get organized the right way at the right time and built Israel. I admire their fortitude. Give the Pals a millennia or two; if they don't disappear perhaps they will do to Israel what Israel is doing to them. BTW, as I am sure you know, most Jews do not harbour megalomaniac ambitions and would prefer to live in peace. I really don't believe the political reality of Israel reflects their wills. Here are a couple of examples: "Since then, 38 long years have passed. The "benign occupation" has long since turned into a brutal and ugly regime of oppression. The prophecy of Professor Yeshayahu Leibovitz, that the occupation would corrupt us through and through and turn us into a people of exploiters and secret-service-men, has come awfully true. Nothing has remained of the "beautiful Eretz Israel" but a cloying nostalgia, of which Naomi Shemer was a standard-bearer. A small and gallant state, progressive and (relatively) egalitarian, respected by the world, has become an occupying and looting state, hostage to delirious settlers, full of internal violence and "swinish capitalism" (a phrase coined by Shimon Peres, one of those most responsible for this situation.) Throughout the world, the idea of boycotting Israel is gaining ground. What looked at the time like a divine miracle now looks more like a pact with the devil... http://www.counterpunch.com/avnery05122005.html Or... "In the summer of 1954, six years after the Israelis conquered the village of Tantura, I spent the summer in Kibbutz Nachsholim, which had been established on the ruins of the village less than one year after its conquest. I was then a counselor in the Youth Movement, Hanoar Ha'oved. In accordance with the custom of those days, by which older teenage members of the movement used to spend the summer months working voluntarily in a kibbutz, my group of grade 11 students had been sent to Nachsholim. We were warmly welcomed and accommodated in the old Arab houses that dotted the shoreline of what used to be Tantura. Some of the kibbutz members, particularly bachelor males not much older than my youth movement kids, used to spend most of their evenings mingling with us. During one of these get-togethers, a girl from my group turned to one of the kibbutz members and asked about the houses in which we were living. "What are these houses?", she asked. "Who used to live here and where are these people now?" A short silence ensued and then one of the older kibbutz members changed the subject by saying: "Lets not talk about this. It is just too complicated". A warning light was switched on at the back of my head: "Something bad has happened here". However, I didn't do anything to inquire further. I went on with my life and actually forgot the whole incident -- but the realization that something untoward had happened there lingered on." counterpunch.com