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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Elroy who wrote (233555)5/19/2005 9:17:45 AM
From: SilentZ  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 1571855
 
>Notice how they haven't broken into any prisons to free prisoners, overtaken any city governments, etc.

For one thing, most of the cities don't seem to have governments to speak of at the moment -- there's an awful lot of chaos. Second, Saddam had already freed everyone from the prisons right before the war, so most of the prisoners that are in prisons right now in Iraq are likely in American prisons, which our troops are guarding.

>You are confusing the ability to plant a roadside bomb with the ability to take over a population. They can terrorize, but they can't lead.

That's not for lack of numbers and support -- it's for lack of unity. There are several factions to the insurgency. Besides, that's not entirely true, either. Does the name Moqtada al-Sadr ring a bell? He's becoming a political force.

>When there are militias fighting militias, you will be correct. All you have now are guerilla thugs killing innocent people. That's not civil war.

I agree that it's not civil war -- yet. But they're on that path. I don't think it will become an actual civil war until we leave.

>This is the goal of the coalition and 99% of Iraqis, why do you seem to think it cannot be accomplished?

If I were a gambling man, I'd wager that half of the Iraqis support the insurgents more than they support the U.S..

One thing is for sure -- the insurgency is not getting weaker.

-Z



To: Elroy who wrote (233555)5/19/2005 9:26:49 AM
From: Road Walker  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 1571855
 
re: Nonsense. The insurgents movement is a losing proposition.

<snip>In Baghdad, a senior officer said Wednesday in a background briefing that the 21 car bombings in Baghdad so far this month almost matched the total of 25 in all of last year....

<snip>One senior officer suggested Wednesday that U.S. military involvement could last ``many years.''...

<snip>``I think that this could still fail,'' the officer said at the briefing, referring to the U.S. effort in Iraq. ``It's much more likely to succeed, but it could still fail.'' He said much depended on the new government's success in increasing public confidence among Iraqis.

The officer said recent polls conducted by Baghdad University had shown confidence flagging sharply, down from an 85 percent rating immediately after the elections...

<snip>The generals said the buildup of Iraqi forces has been more disappointing than previously acknowledged. They noted the absence of any Iraqi forces when a 1,000-member Marine battle group mounted an offensive last week against insurgent strongholds in the northwestern desert near Syria.

----------------------

Generals, shedding exuberance, say mission may last `many years'

By John F. Burns and Eric Schmitt

New York Times

BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. military commanders in Baghdad and Washington gave a sobering new assessment of the war in Iraq on Wednesday, adding to the mood of anxiety that prompted Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to make a trip to Baghdad last weekend to consult with Iraq's new government.

In interviews and briefings Wednesday, the generals pulled back from recent suggestions -- including those by some of the same officers -- that positive trends could allow a reduction in the 138,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq by late this year or early in 2006.

One senior officer suggested Wednesday that U.S. military involvement could last ``many years.''

Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. officer in the Middle East, said in a briefing in Washington that one problem was the disappointing progress in developing Iraqi paramilitary police units cohesive enough to mount an effective challenge to the insurgents and allow U.S. forces to reduce their role in fighting.

President Bush, in a speech Wednesday evening in Washington, called for patience in assessing Iraq's progress toward democracy.

``No nation in history has made the transition from tyranny to a free society without setbacks and false starts,'' Bush told the International Republican Institute. ``What separates those nations that succeed from those that falter is their progress in establishing free institutions.''

In Baghdad, a senior officer said Wednesday in a background briefing that the 21 car bombings in Baghdad so far this month almost matched the total of 25 in all of last year.

Against this, he said, there has been a lull in insurgents' activity in Baghdad in recent days after months of some of the bloodiest attacks, a trend that suggested that U.S. pressure, including the capture of key bomb makers, had left the insurgents incapable of mounting protracted offensives.

But the officer said that despite U.S. troops' recent successes in disrupting insurgent cells, which have resulted in the arrest of 1,100 suspects in Baghdad alone in the past 80 days, the success of American goals in Iraq was not assured.

``I think that this could still fail,'' the officer said at the briefing, referring to the U.S. effort in Iraq. ``It's much more likely to succeed, but it could still fail.'' He said much depended on the new government's success in increasing public confidence among Iraqis.

The officer said recent polls conducted by Baghdad University had shown confidence flagging sharply, down from an 85 percent rating immediately after the elections.

Another problem cited by the senior officer in Baghdad was the new government's ban on raids on mosques, announced Monday, which the U.S. officer said he expected to be revised.

To raise the level of public confidence, the officer said, the new government would need success in cutting insurgent attacks and addressing popular impatience for improvements in public services such as electricity that for many Iraqis are worse than they were last year.

But the U.S. officer emphasized the need for caution -- and the time it may take to complete the U.S. mission -- themes that recur often in the private conversations of U.S. officers in Iraq.

``I think it's going to succeed in the long run, even if it takes years, many years,'' he said.

On a personal note, he added that he, like many U.S. soldiers, had spent long periods of duty related to Iraq and he said: ``We believe in the mission that we've got. We believe in it because we're in it, and if we let go of the insurgency and take our foot off its throat, then this country could fail and go back into civil war and chaos.''

Only weeks ago, in the aftermath of the elections, U.S. generals offered a more upbeat view, one that was tied to a surge of Iraqi confidence that one commander in Baghdad now describes as ``euphoria.''

But on Wednesday, five high-ranking officers, speaking separately at the Pentagon and in Baghdad, and through an e-mail exchange from Baghdad with a reporter in Washington, ranged with unusual candor and detail over problems now confronting the war effort.

The generals' remarks, emphasizing the insurgency's resilience but also U.S. and Iraqi successes in disrupting it, suggested that U.S. commanders may have seen an opportunity after Rice's trip to inject their own note of realism into public debate about Iraq.

In talks with Iraq's new Shiite leaders, Rice urged a more convincing effort to reach out to the dispossessed Sunni minority, warning that success required a political strategy that encouraged at least some Sunni insurgent groups to turn toward peace.

The generals said the buildup of Iraqi forces has been more disappointing than previously acknowledged. They noted the absence of any Iraqi forces when a 1,000-member Marine battle group mounted an offensive last week against insurgent strongholds in the northwestern desert near Syria.

U.S. officers said 125 insurgents had been killed, with the loss of about 14 U.S. soldiers, but acknowledged that lack of sufficient troops may have helped many insurgents to flee across the border or back into the interior of Iraq.

The border offensive was concluded during the weekend, with an air of disappointment that some of the wider goals had not been achieved -- possibly including the capture of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Islamist who is the U.S. forces' most-wanted man in Iraq.

One officer said U.S. military intelligence had information that the recent car-bombing offensive had been ordered by a high-level meeting of insurgents in Syria within the past 30 days, and that reports indicated that one of those at the meeting may have been Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born militant who was named by Osama bin Laden earlier this year as Al-Qaida's chief in Iraq. In statements on Islamist Web sites, groups loyal to Zarqawi have claimed responsibility for many of the car bombings.



To: Elroy who wrote (233555)5/19/2005 12:15:48 PM
From: tejek  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1571855
 
We HAVE BEEN TRYING TO "neutralize the propogators" FOR TWO YEARS... and they are getting STRONGER.

Nonsense. The insurgents movement is a losing proposition. The likelihood that they are stronger than a US fund and trained Iraqi civil defense force is ridiculous. Notice how they haven't broken into any prisons to free prisoners, overtaken any city governments, etc. You are confusing the ability to plant a roadside bomb with the ability to take over a population. They can terrorize, but they can't lead.


From day one, the hawks have told the rest of us how wrong our view is; that what we see and hear is not real. The truth is that you all have been wrong from before the very first shot had been fired.

It's not fucking working, get it through your thick skull.

90% of "it" is finished. Saddam's regime is removed, and the opportunity to build a civil, tolerant society is in front of the Iraqi population. Again, you are confusing an insurgent's bomb with defeat.


Nonsense. Ten percent is done.......the rest has just begun.

There are centuries old religious and ethnic forces at work here, there is money from the second largest oil reserve in the world to foster competition and corruption, there is no central authority, there is no infrastructure, there is no foundation to build cooperation. All there is is civil war.

When there are militias fighting militias, you will be correct. All you have now are guerilla thugs killing innocent people. That's not civil war.


Wrong. There are militias fighting militias.

My one sentence sums up what now needs to be done. The solution is of course to neutralize the propogators of the violence, and the more home grown the neutralizing force, the better. This is the goal of the coalition and 99% of Iraqis, why do you seem to think it cannot be accomplished?

Because the Iraqis who are being trained don't seem to really want to fight for freedom. Meanwhile, their corruption and incompetence grows with each passing day.