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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: neolib who wrote (162782)	5/21/2005 7:43:37 PM
From: bentway	Respond to of 281500

I got the Jabotinski quote from this artice: mediamonitors.net It's in the footnotes. It's taken from this book: Original Sins: Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi amazon.com

To: neolib who wrote (162782)	5/21/2005 7:57:06 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

From the Amazon review of the Originial Sins book: Editorial Reviews From Kirkus Reviews A critical and largely one-sided view of modern Zionism and the history of Israel. According to Beit-Hallahmi (The Israeli Connection, 1987), who sees the Palestinians as innocent victims of foreign colonialism, Israel is plagued by a curse--``the curse of the original sin against the native Palestinians''--and there will be no peace until it atones for its sins. The author first establishes that, in modern times, the majority of Jews have had only a vague understanding of rabbinical Judaism (which he depicts as a kind of primitive mythology). Zionism, he says, offers these ``sociological'' Jews an identity--but the Zionist movement is doomed because ``it desired national territory occupied by another national group...with its own normal existence.'' Moreover, because the Jewish people have no legitimate claim to the land of Israel, while they occupy it they can never enjoy their own ``normal'' existence. Though provocative, Beit-Hallahmi's argument is marred by inaccuracies and generalizations. He claims, for instance, that ``all Israelis have come to recognize Zionism's original sin against the Palestinians.'' A look at Israel's electorate, however, makes it clear that most Israelis assume no such culpability. Furthermore, in discussing Hebrew and Yiddish, the author contends that ``Yiddish remains the language of the Orthodox, who have always opposed Zionism.'' In fact, though, most Israeli Orthodox Jews under age 60 speak only Hebrew, and only a small minority aren't fervent nationalists. Engaging but misleading. Here again, as in too much writing on the Middle East, sincerity has replaced balanced analysis. -- Copyright ©1993, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition. If you want full Jabotinsky quotes you'll have to look elsewhere. J Chrissy P hasn't a clue, he's just trolling for anti-Zionist websites, where he assumes that anybody who can be shown to hate Zionists or Jews must be for truth and justice. Actually, the wikipedia articles on Zionism are not half bad.

To: neolib who wrote (162782)	5/21/2005 8:46:37 PM
From: bentway	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Here's where the Jabotinski quote was taken from: marxists.de I've got to give the guy credit for his honesty! It's the Israeli way, the highway or the bullet. Unlike Nadine, he doesn't hate the Arabs - they're just in his way, on the land he claims, with his "land grant from God". "Thus we conclude that we cannot promise anything to the Arabs of the Land of Israel or the Arab countries. Their voluntary agreement is out of the question. Hence those who hold that an agreement with the natives is an essential condition for Zionism can now say “no” and depart from Zionism. Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy."

To: neolib who wrote (162782)	5/22/2005 12:02:57 AM
From: marcos	Respond to of 281500

That looks like an accurate Jabotinsky quote, fairly presented ... it's probably the most famous one, various excerpts from it all over .... it is not a quote from a speech or anything, it is from a book he wrote, one of several, so can be nailed down exactly for accuracy, as copies exist .... Jabotinsky did seem to go through various moods, generally he became clearer about wiping out the natives as time passed, so his later stuff is harsher than the earlier .... then, at one point, he tries to take some of it back, afraid that he was being a little too clear, it looks like .... there is a piece on this somewhere, can't recall where He's not the only one whose thinking on the issue is muddled ... you'll have heard of a Benny Morris, who brought a fair bit of denied history to light in the eighties, well check out his reasoning here - logosjournal.com Here's a colleague of his who is not too impressed with all that - logosjournal.com