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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: geode00 who wrote (163652)	6/5/2005 5:25:33 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Geode, you obviously have no idea what libertarianism is about if you think it's dog eat dog rule of the jungle. <If you're going to be a libertarian then BE ONE FOR REAL. Go to the hinterlands of Afghanistan where it's Darwin at the point of a gun. There are apparently no laws in about 1/3rd of that country so you can do as you like there as well. > Until you get the premises right, you can't develop the ideas. It's like building a bridge. First you need foundations. If the foundations are in the wrong place, or of faulty design, you won't have a bridge. <Do you equate traffic laws as slavery?> Some traffic laws are pretty stupid, but some are intended to avoid undue risk and to enable people to progress. For example, if people drove on either the left or right side of the road, there would be too many collisions. So people are required to drive on one side. Similarly with speed. The idea is to avoid reckless driving and excessive risk. A probabilistic harm isn't actual harm to somebody else, but it's still a threat which should be removed. <Do you equate paying income taxes as slavery?> I didn't use to, but nowadays, in New Zealand, income taxes are pretty much slavery. That's because the money is not spent on community benefit but private benefit [welfare, medical care, government rorts and what is euphemistically called education]. When somebody conscripts somebody else, forcing them to be cannon fodder somewhere, dying in the process, it looks like slavery to me. That's what slavery was. Americans conscripted negroes and forced them to do what they were told for the benefit of those doing the ordering. You are proposing to choose people by age and gender, rather than skin melanin content. That is just another way of defining the slave. The person becomes a slave when they are forced against their will to provide benefits to other people. I don't intend to "get off the grid" thanks. Why don't you get off the grid [whatever that means]? Supply and demand is the balance between buyers and sellers. Buyers and sellers are people indulging their freedom to buy and sell what they want at prices they agree. Of course we need laws to stop people attacking others or their property, defrauding them or putting them at risk. Where on Earth did you get the idea that I disagree with that? Check out libertarianz.org.nz for some understanding of what libertarians think. Mqurice

To: geode00 who wrote (163652)	6/5/2005 8:42:45 AM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Sorry to interject... In general I am in favour of as few laws as possible. As far as I am concerned the only legitimate laws are either those that are absolutely necessary to prevent chaos in the society, and those that protect the freedom of the weak against the strong. So on to your questions: Is draft the same as slavery? In a non-democratic society it is. In a democracy when the nation as a whole decides if it is worth the war, then no; it is just the price of being part of that society. As it stands the nation did not choose to go to war and most certainly it does not have a direct power to call it off. So the question is debatable. However, perhaps just as the best way to repeal bad laws is to fully enforce them, then perhaps the best way not to get into bad wars in the first place is to subject them to a draft. So I am willing to support you on this. Do you also equate requiring children to get an education with slavery? It should be none of government's business how I educated my kids. Perhaps I think their time is better spent learning the family business than useless info in school. Or perhaps I feel they are better off having a good time as kids than being exposed to drugs and violence of some schools. It all depends on the circumstances and the quality of schools available to me. Do you equate traffic laws as slavery? I support this under the anti-chaos laws needed for cohesion in society. Even the dumb laws are a minor nuisance, although I am convinced the purpose many bad parking laws is to make money for the city. Do you equate paying income taxes as slavery? FOR THE MOST PARTS YES! I favour a pay-as-you-use scheme. This goes for schools to a most of "defense" spending. Government gets itself into all kinds of situations that I do not approve of. And it has institutionalized these spending to such an extent to be nearly impossible to repeal. I should not have to choose between leaving my life and family behind or paying up all those excessive military spending.

To: geode00 who wrote (163652)	6/5/2005 3:01:35 PM
From: stockman_scott	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Do the ends always justify the means for Karl Rove...? What kind of democracy do we really have in this country...? If this is true, the Mainstream Media ignores another major scandal that might take down an administration...fyi... Interview with Clint Curtis: radio4all.net; <<...Notes: Clint Curtis is a former software programmer with a company called Yang Enterprises in Florida. He alleges that he was asked to design a vote-rigging software program by Tom Feeney, a Republican congressman who was also a lawyer for the company. He designed the program and when he learned it was actually to be used for vote fraud, he became a whistleblower on the company. He told his story to Department of Transport Investigator Raymond Lemme, who agreed to look into the case. Lemme eventually told Curtis in June of 2003 that his report was finished and that he would be pleased with the results, as the story went 'all the way to the top'. Three weeks later he was found dead in a Georgia motel room, allegedly by suicide. Brad Friedman is the investigative reporter who has been exposing details of not only Curtis' case, but those of Lemme's suicide and the police case surrounding it, on his website bradblog.com ...>>