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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Elroy who wrote (236442)	6/9/2005 12:48:21 PM
From: RetiredNow	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1574017

What makes you believe the Jews have the right to establish a country which benefits them to the exclusion of others (much less the right to do so on land that has been someone elses for 200 years)? Where did they get this "right" from, in your mind? Good questions. I will try to answer what I think is right. I believe Jews have a right to establish a country for themselves in order to have a place where they can thrive and avoid persecution. Colonial Americans decided that they wanted to form a country for themselves where they could practice freedom of religion and have representational gov't. That culminated in the Declaration of Independence from Britain in 1776. Now the difference between Americans and Jews was that the land wasn't ours. We basically stole it from the American Indians, although a counter argument to that is the Indians didn't believe in land ownership. The Jews on the other hand used to rule all of Greater Israel for hundreds of years. Then the diaspora occurred. Then in the late 19th century political Zionism came into force through Herzl's work and the homecoming to Israel began. Jews bought most of the land and then won some of it in wars after 1948. But in 1948, the UN passed a resolution sanctioning two states in Palestine: one for Jews and one for Palestinians. So I think we should support the Jews in their sovereignty because they are seeking a home where they can be free of persecution and where they can have a representational gov't for themselves. These goals are VERY American goals. I also think we should support them, because the U.N. decided that they should have sovereignty. So we should respect the wishes of the world as represented in the UN.

To: Elroy who wrote (236442)	6/9/2005 12:55:42 PM
From: RetiredNow	Respond to of 1574017

And why in the world should the US support this endeavor which is anethemic to the rights and values established in our constitution and declaration of independence (all men created equal)? I broke this one out from the other, because I think you are hitting on something which is going to make the Jewish experiment in Israel untenable over the long term. I think we should support the Jews because of the reasons in my previous post. BUT I think the way the Jews have set up their government is doomed to long term instability at best or failure at worst. The reason is because they are guaranteeing rights only for Jewish citizens. Arabs or non-Jews are really second class citizens. This is a HUGE departure from American Democracy. I think the key ingredient to the success of American Democracy is INTEGRATION of different races, cultures, and religions. The Jews will find that their Democracy will only remain tenable if they maintain their numbers, otherwise it will become an apartheid, which will lead to collapse. The same can be said for the future of Islamic Democracy. If they hope to build something to stand the tests of time, then they need to figure out a way to build an integrative society that does not treat non-Islamic people as second class citizens. Anyway, I really wish I could live another couple hundred years to see how it all plays out. But I will make a prediction for you. Jewish Democracy will fail, unless they decide to become an integrative society, as the U.S. long ago mastered. If not, then Israel will cease to exist as a sovereign state. Europe faces the same issues. They are horribly neglecting the needs of integrating their Islamic immigrants. The result is that Europe has become a breeding ground for extremists who are fueled from a society that treets them as second class citizens. THAT is why despite all of America's warts and mistakes, we are still the beacon to the world. The world's immigrants know that if they come here, they will be accepted and integrated. They will be free and will not feel any different than anyone else who lives here. They can't get that anywhere else in the world.