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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bilow who wrote (164958)6/29/2005 1:44:18 AM
From: geode00  Respond to of 281500
 
"That is, you're complaining not about the fact that the war was the stupidest thing the US and Britain have done since the war of 1812, but instead that the war is being run incompetently."

==== Geez, you talkin' about moi?

I've been against the war before we ever started the war. It bugged me back then that a small group of people were getting ready to go to war, putting 200,000 troops on the border and giving Saddam an ultimatum that he might not be able to answer even if he wanted to. OBL made us stupid on 911.

I do think that with 450,000-500,000 troops we might actually have kept a lid on things. If we had immediate elections based on the Iraqi census, looked for WMDs and found none and kept the Baathist government in place (except for the very top) then we would have a very different Iraq.

Right now, I have no problem if we leave tomorrow BECAUSE the end game appears to be ridiculous. We have Jewish Neocons pushing a Christian Administration into toppling a secular despot to put into place an Islamist theocracy with strong ties to Iran?

WHAT? OK, maybe not tomorrow but what about in a year instead of 12?

What I am saying is that:

1. Bush got us into an illegal war for oil, profiteering and his own psychotic reasons.

2. Bush has been an incompetent military leader.

3. If #2 wasn't the case, the American Public would accept #1 and sweep it under the carpet.

4. I don't care if Iraq is a rip roaring success when it comes to #1. They are two separate issues. It's an illegal war and he needs to be impeached over it along with Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rice, Rumsfeld and the rest of them.

======= I also think the Kurds have left Iraq in all but name and for the sake of politics.



To: Bilow who wrote (164958)6/29/2005 1:59:28 PM
From: Sam  Respond to of 281500
 
What Makes Bush Upbeat about a US Victory in Iraq?

DEBKAfile Exclusive Middle East Report

June 28, 2005, 1:59 PM (GMT+02:00)

The speech US President George W. Bush makes Tuesday, June 28, at the elite 82nd Airborne Division’s home at Fort Bragg, N.C. is fraught with symbolism. The venue is the home base of the division that has born the brunt of the two-and-a half year Iraq war. The date is the first anniversary of the transfer of post-Saddam government to Iraqi sovereignty. One year ago, US administrator Paul Bremer handed the keys of government to interim prime minister Iyad Allawi amid high hopes of a new Iraq.

Allawi remains Washington’s key man in Baghdad, even after the January general election produced a new administration headed by prime minister Ibrahim Jaafari and president Jalal Talabani. The Bush administration is counting on him heavily to eventually find a way out of the Iraqi insurgency and its supportive Arab terror campaign and put an end to guerrilla-terror war that has claimed 1,715 Americans lives and left an Iraqi death toll estimated in tens of thousands. Since the incumbent government took office in April, more than 1000 have been killed, most of them Iraqis.

But as Bush assures Americans that their country will win the war, Allawi, according to DEBKAfile’s military and intelligence sources, is playing a supporting role in Amman, Jordan. There, he is running a negotiating marathon with batch after batch of Sunni tribal leaders, guerrilla commanders – some as menacing as the al Qaeda-linked Ansar al Islam – and senior Sunni clerics. His mission is to broker an end to the violence plaguing Iraq. (Ansar al Islam was seriously discomfited by the publication of these contacts and made haste to reaffirm its individed dedication to jihad.)

According to our sources, Allawi embarked on the most intensive phase of his Amman talks Saturday, June 25, after secret preparatory visits to two Arab capitals – Damascus, June 23, to see Syrian president Bashar Assad, and Cairo Friday, June 24 for talks with Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak. His purpose was to enlist their aid in stopping Iraq’s guerrilla war. The former Iraqi premier was provided with a special plane by the United Arab Emirates which is chipping in with funding for his US-backed peace mission.

The Iraqi mediator left Damascus empty handed.

Assad again spurned the umpteenth demand to seal Syria’s borders against the outflow to Iraq of the Arab fighters, weapons, explosives and money fueling the insurgency. He likewise refused to shut down the al Qaeda and pro-Saddam Baath senior command posts and training camps operating out of Syria’s main cities. Allawi and Assad never got along. But the Syrian ruler made a deliberate gesture of ill will by immediately inviting Allawi’s great political rival Iraqi president Jalal Talabani to visit Damascus in the coming days. The invitation was also meant as a hint to Iraqi Arabs and Sunnis that the Americans and the former prime minister were not the only options on the board.

In Cairo, Allawi was warmly welcomed. Mubarak not only promised assistance for a negotiated accommodation to pacify Iraq, but there and then, picked up the phone and ordered Arab League secretary Amr Mussa to put the entire organization behind the Allawi mission.

In Amman, the Shiite politician is at home.

DEBKA-Net-Weekly 210 of June 17 was the first world publication to disclose the Hashemite royal palace’s deep involvement on Washington’s behalf in the secret track running between US and guerrilla commanders. King Abdullah has placed his own national security adviser General Saad Kheir in charge of the Jordanian liaison officers carrying messages back and forth between the parties.

But in the five months since these Amman-based exchanges began, little has been achieved. Worst of all, the level of violence has not diminished, but the reverse.

So how does Bush see Allawi proceeding next?

According to DEBKAfile sources, mid-July has been set as the deadline for the Iraqi politician to wind up his negotiations with the Sunni guerrillas. That is supposed to give him time to organize a Sunni Arab Congress that will bring together 250 delegates of all the Sunni factions, parties and guerrilla groups. Their attendance will serve as a ticket to Iraq’s mainstream political process. Whereas Allawi is a secular Shiite outside government, he has enlisted a reliable and solid collaborator inside the cabinet: Sunni defense minister Saadoun al-Duleimi.

DEBKAfile’s Iraq experts believe that, even if Allawi brings the entire maneuver off, there is no guarantee that guerrilla operations will instantly cease or even abate. A decline may be expected – but only over a period of time.

Our experts support the US defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s gloomy assessment as more realistic than the president’s optimism. Sunday, June 26, two days before the Bush keynote speech at For Brag, Rumsfeld remarked that insurgencies tend to go on for six, eight, 10, 12 years. He reflected the grim testimony US Middle East commander Gen John Abizaid offered the Senate’s Armed Services Committee when he reported that the Iraqi insurgency was still running with the same intensity and foreign fighters joining the war at the same level as six months ago.

DEBKAfile’s Iraq experts add three points to bolster these estimates:

1. While Allawi has been in contact with Sunni figures one way or another for a year, starting during his term as prime minister, the level of insurgent attacks has not been affected. Their leaders have found they can keep shooting and talking at the same time.

2. All the Bush administration’s efforts to topple the Assad regime and create a new political environment in Damascus that would stem the flow of Arab aid to Iraq are turning into long-term endeavors. Results could take months or even years and meanwhile the Syrian lifeline to the Iraqi insurgency is functioning full blast.

3. The Baghdad administration’s conduct of state affairs is increasingly detrimental to Sunni Arab interests. The Kurds and the Shiites who dominate the government are progressively expanding self-rule in their respective territories in ways that constrict the Sunni region around Baghdad, leave them with sparse crumbs of the country’s oil resources, and no access to the sea or Europe. It is hard to imagine the Sunni
[EDIT: article ends there for some reason, must be a dropped line]

debka.com



To: Bilow who wrote (164958)6/29/2005 2:13:48 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
Military families speak out

mfso.org

Joyce and Kevin Lucey are members of Military Families Speak Out and Gold Star Families for Peace. Their son, Cpl. Jeffrey Lucey, served in the Marine Reserves in Iraq in 2003. He came home neither safe nor sound. He suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and took his own life on June 22, 2004. His name is not in the Department of Defenses' roster of those who died in this war; yet Cpl. Lucey is a casualty of this war as much as any who has lost his or her life on the battlefield. This is their thoughts after watching President speak at Fort Bragg on June 28, 2005.

We have just watched the President's speech and we made notes as he spoke. This is a summary of our reflections some being very personal but very real.

When all this began, despite our doubts and suspicions, we originally supported the efforts being made to make the world safer and the troops involved .. especially our son.

While the war waged on, we waited for anything from our son to assure us that he and his buddies were safe. We also waited for the Weapons of Mass Destruction to be found - after Jeff's death I prayed for them to be found; we waited for the network of terrorism to be found and destroyed and we waited for that link of Iraq to 9/11/01; we waited to find the imminent danger which we were facing.

Were these not the basic premises on which we rushed to war. Were these not the points that this administration went to the country and to the UN and stated that they had proof. Did they not say that they had to react immediately due to the imminent danger to our safety.

I know that this administration has changed the premises for the war like a chameleon - to meet whatever were the fears or concerns existing at that time.

The administration states that they are making the world safer for our children - but my 23 yo son is laying in Island Pond Cemetery despite his returning from the war physically unscathed but destroyed within his spirit. He no longer lives and it was due to this rush to war.

In the speech tonight, we heard nothing of the WMD; we heard nothing of Iraq's link to 911; we heard nothing of Iraq being the center of terrorism except for the illusion to Bin Laden's referral after our country invaded and had killed thousands of innocents.

We heard instead of elections and setting up "free" government in Iraq. Were any of these among the basic premises for the invasion?

Was it not also said that Iraq oil would pay for the reconstruction of the country which we bombed and attacked.

To complete the mission, we need to know what the mission was. None of the original premises for the war was ever realized. Why did our son die? Why did any of our loved ones die?

This administration seems so distant from the reality of both war and the loss. It is so easy for him to say the sacrifice is worth it when he has personally not suffered what 1700+ families have had to endure. What funerals has he attended among all these 1700+? Does he meet only with those families who support his policies?

Will no one ever address the deceptions or ignorance or combination of both which was used to wage this war and kill thousands of innocents and dramatically effect thousands or millions of survivors who probably are suffering from PTSD...and who only have learnt how "dangerous" we have become.

We did all this at the expense of 1700+ lives of our own sons, daughters, mothers, fathers and neighbors...and this is the smallest most conservative number of the numbers which may be true. Will our son be counted - NO.

The administration states that it will send more troops if requested but in reality how many more troops do we have to send.

They speak of the number of Iraqis who died under Saddam but how many innocents have died under our bombs and attacks.

People speak of constitutions. Our constitution - where in it does it enable us to be the caretakers of all other nations. What gives us the right to Impose our values and expectations on others.

We attacked Iraq to remove Saddam - that was one of the subsequent changes in the basic premises but we would ask you - why Saddam? Why Iraq? Why didn't the focus go directly to Al Queda in Afganistan - they were the ones who did 9/11. Isn't North Korea much more dangerous yet I don't see us responding to a very real danger.

The days of soundbytes and glorious words are over. This country must return to its basic once again.

We do support our troops - we want them to come back safely now from Iraq which was such a horrendous mistake. If they are to go in harms way then let us always be sure that war if waged is truly our last resort and is truly deserved.

It is too late for the Jeffrey or the Casey but it is not too late for those who still breathe.

We believe it is abhorrent that he uses the thousands of souls who lost their lives 9/11; we feel that it is horrible that he uses the souls of those that were killed in this war to justify more to die in the future and on a more personal - Jeff stated that this war should have never occurred in Iraq - maybe in Afghanistan but not in Iraq.

Then when this administration submitted their budget proposal for a 5% increase in the VA budget with the recommendation of cuts in services and increase of co-pays, we then realized that this administration truly did not support the troops ... only the war.

This administration created a situation of which they have lost control and now for the wrong reasons he wants to invest more of our people.

For us this "issue" is not a matter of spin or politics. When a family has lost a love one, you pray to find some reason but, given this situation, there was no reason. Both Jeff and his family loved the country and its people but speaking only for myself I have lost faith in my government.

I listened to Senator McCain speaking about if he had a child going to war and I can only say despite my respect for him, I have now lost faith in him also.

I would ask many of the commentators who gave their opinion on tonight's show, whether they themselves have loved ones over on the frontlines.

Joyce & Kevin Lucey