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To: Moominoid who wrote (67171)	8/9/2005 10:19:02 AM
From: TobagoJack	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

I think GM is not a savings machine or but a debt nuke i think there is a huge misunderstanding, like the gdp concept, to believe that companies save - it is all part of voodoo economics and financial metaphysics companies do not save, they invest, fail or succeed, distribute if possible, to management mostly and governments do not save savings = investment, only by math equation, only true when applied across the galaxy, not individuals, companies, nations and other open systems all disasters always, always, fall on the individual, and it is at this level the cushion is needed, else we are talking socialism/communism, and even in those systems, the weight of the fall is again on the individual the japanese individual savings that is carrying the day is actual cash/near-cash, not home values, bridges, etc and the japanese companies build export surplus because of investment, funded by customers, and by short changing management and shareholders

To: Moominoid who wrote (67171)	8/9/2005 2:27:15 PM
From: energyplay	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

My savings rant, updated - US Corporate saving tends to be understated, since much of it occurs at overseas subsidiaries for tax reasons. Many assets are held on the books at acquisition prices because of tax reasons. *** I beleive that individual savings are mis-stated since capital gains are not counted as income in the US (they are in Canada). When Mike Eisner gets a 110 million a year pay package, over 90 million is in stock at prices that will generate mostly capital gains. Insider stock sales for US public corporations have run about 40-80 Billion a year. That's about 1 % of the 4 trillion personal income. About half of that number will be capital gains. Non-insider stock holder, including people who 'retired' or left the company, and lower level employees, plus outsider stock holders, will sell 3-10 what the insiders will sell. **** Three other areas for savings - 1) State and local governments are often required to run in or near the black. Their surpluses often go into Federal bonds. At this stage of the recovery, this sector is still running deficts, but they are shrinking. 3)SOE State owned enterprises, Para statals, GSEs - The US has a lot of them. New Jersey Turpike. Amtrack. (real money loser) Tennnese Valley Authority TVA Corporation for Public Broadcasting New York - New Jersey Port Authority. Many of these operations were initially funded with huge tax dollars to start operation. They have been accumulating assets, either land or securities, ever since. Some of them still get money from taxes, which they use to pay expenses, while their other money goes to acquiring and enhancing assets. Often these entities have opaque accounting, or almost no public accounts. 4) The private institution and non profit sector - Havard University's endowment has grown at over 1 Billion a year. I would guess that the US has far more endowed universities, with much more money, than the rest of the world combined. Foundations like the Hughes Medical Research, Ford, Rockerfeller, etc. also tend to run surpluses. Newer foundation need to spend 5% of their assets each year, the older ones do not. Also in this category are the many "vehicles" for transfering wealth and control, which may have some educational or charitable activity, but are mostly a private asset. These will be excluded from personal income calculation - they report under foundation tax numbers, not Social Security Numbers Since even mid level athelets who make around 5 million for 4-5 years have these vehicles, I expect that these vehicles are where some of the "personal savings" disappear... I'll make a SWAG, and say that is at least 1/2 %, or 40+ Billion per year. ******************** Tax advantage saving programms - these include IRAs, 401 (k)s, and eight other programms like 403 (b), 529 college, and 6 other programms like this. Are the BLS stat people capturing ALL of these ? I don't think so. Everytime the US Congress hears about the danger of a low savings rate, they create some new programms to help upper middle class and rich people save in ways that don't show up in savings statistics. Nice work if you can get it. ****************** Since most of the uncounted savings are capital gains or in private vehicles, this skews strongly towards the upper income levels (yeah, this is a duh! point - rich people save more) This explains why high end luxury consumer goods keep selling briskly. I might re-title this - Hidden Assets, Snarling Consumer