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To: Maurice Winn who wrote (67949)8/22/2005 2:31:24 PM
From: Slagle  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 74559
 
Maurice Re: "liberal" Good to hear from you as I've missed your essays lately. <g> Thought you were on a world tour?

There has been a lot of water under the bridge since the days of John Stuart Mill. You know Churchill in his early political career was a "liberal" but as Prime Minister he was considered to be an extreme Tory, especially in his last term. But in his writings Churchill claimed that he hadn't changed and that he believed in the same things, but that English "liberalism" had changed into something altogether different. I think you may have a bit of that at work here.

And I surely don't know much about New Zealand liberals as I mainly aim my barbs at the ones I know personally and those who live here. You have a very different history than ours as I would guess your form of government and the ideas which have formed your post-colonial arrangements owes a great deal more to the French Revolution than to the American Revolution, despite your English heritage.

Now this Classical Liberalism of the John Stuart Mill variety has points with which I agree, properly defined and in correct balance with our American experience. But there are very many features of our American heritage that I want to see preserved and enhanced whether they conform to the J. S. Mill variety of liberalism or not.

Let me give you an example of a really important conflict, just one among very many: Liberals claim that they want "limited government". But John Stuart Mill came along with his ideas LONG AFTER our founders had already established a system of VERY limited government and the maximum in personal freedoms, but with some important refinements I have never seen mentioned with regard to Mill.

Our system of limited government not only aimed to limit government, but to demand that what bare minimum of government that was needed be as LOCAL as possible. Mill, with his European view may have considered local control impossible to implement there and hence ignored it as an important benefit. There is NOTHING more important to personal freedom than local control of government, NOTHING. But the USA is the only place in the world with a high degree of local control.

Liberals here, because they have been frustrated in forcing their various programs through local governments desire to vastly expand the role of the NATIONAL government, indeed even INTERNATIONAL government (the UN, World Court, ect.). In fact, liberals both here and elsewhere are tireless advocates of BIG GOVERNMENT, despite the John Stuart Mill rhetoric.

Of course the USA has ALWAYS been the biggest advocate of "free trade" in the world. The British Empire had all sorts of schemes to create a closed system, like "Imperial Preferences", ect. So did the French, Germans, Dutch and all the rest. In both world wars Wilson and later FDR demanded (and got) all sorts of post war concessions to opening of colonial markets. We HAVE ALWAYS been the big "free trader".

But....our Constitution allows a tariff and describes in detail its usage. In fact the tariff is about the only tax that is legal and constitutional for the federal government to levy. Income tax is ILLEGAL and unconstitutional, so that leaves the tariff to raise revenue for the federal government. I believe it should be used to the maximum. <g>

The liberal self-hatred is a fact. But that is something far beyond classical liberalism and requires a separate explanation.
Slagle



To: Maurice Winn who wrote (67949)8/22/2005 11:57:48 PM
From: shades  Respond to of 74559
 
Mqurice - there is so much to like about that philosophy.

A liberal society is a free and open society, where all interaction is based on mutual consent, and where government does not promote, or persecute any individual, group, or lifestyle, but protects all equally.

HAHA! I bet michael jackson is feeling you!

Message 21622457

According to Dr. Peter Mezan, a psychoanalyst in New York City, "There is an impulse that is common to perversion and to utopian thinking. The wish is to create a world in which differences make no difference. The great utopian thinkers have been immensely inspiring, but there is a reason that utopian communities have never worked out. In the name of equality of every sort and in the attempt to eliminate the tensions that normally divide us, they propose to create a marvelously unnatural world without the usual boundaries. But then it gets all fucked up."

Think of MICHAEL JACKSON. He has attempted to eradicate just about every sexual, generational, and racial difference – and to construct an alternate utopian reality in Neverland. While there is certainly a futuristic quality to his clothing and mask-like facial features, it is unclear whether he watches Star Trek or just looks as if he does.


4. Civil society

A liberal society embraces a diverse civil society with a variety of values, lifestyles, and circumstances where government does not attempt to limit that diversity through the social engineering of outcomes.


siliconinvestor.com

Utopian my ass.....without FORCED equality....there would still be 95% WHITE firefighters, police, and politicians

Mqurice I still see way too many that use the gubbment to further thier memes in a quest to squash others memes - to censor others memes - etc etc Even right here on SI I have been censored on 3 seperate boards in just the past 4 days. The users of the boards are too lazy to hit thier individual ignore feature and keep the power in thier hands - they have run to jim jones central authority type and got that person to go do thier censoring work for them - people want gubbment to create a perfect world for them and thier individual views and want to be lead - most people like to follow - we are pack animals in a sense eh? So that is why your philosophy will fail ultimately.

6. Security

The purpose of the legal system is to enforce the legal rights and responsibilities of its citizens: to protect their lives, freedoms, property, and contracts; however, government shares responsibility for its citizens' safety, but citizens retain the right to personal and collective self-defence


HAHA - I don't even know where to begin with this one - have you went into virtual world with gerrymander and NEO and stopped living in the real physical world?

The purpose of the legal system is to make lawyers rich - HAHA!

Message 21623712

VAWA is not about stopping violence. It is about greedy special interests slopping at the federal trough, perpetuating gender supremacy for women. If proponents were truly concerned about helping victims, they would demand that all intervention and funding be gender neutral and gender inclusive.

That one message alone got me 4 new people I have never heard of before sending me pm's that I should rot in hell and am a sexist pig and to go back to my cave like the neanderthal I am - HAHA! ANd I thought SI had the ayn rand objectivists and a had governed their emotions?!? You obviously are not out here in the real world of OPRAH and her minions - so so silly. I kinda liked what those old guys said before 50 states - with a WEAK central government - then me and all the other geeks could move somewhere and not beholden to others - I think jefferson once said hell is people - too many - too many rules to make them all happy - where to flee? I like your spirit though.

I think General chen said something on his blog recently about declining civilization:

newsoftheweird.com

In July, film director David Lynch announced that he had formed a foundation to raise $7 billion to fund 8,000 Transcendental Meditation practitioners to bring world peace by creating a "unified field" of stress-free brain waves over the Earth (which TM'ers accomplish, as they unironically describe it, by detaching their minds from the "thinking process"). Training expenses have increased dramatically in 12 years, for TM maven Dr. John Hagelin needed only $4.2 million in 1993 to bring 4,000 TM'ers to Washington, D.C., to reduce crime for eight weeks, and TM founder Maharishi Mahesh Yogi asked for only $1 billion in 2002 to train 40,000 meditators to calm the world after Sept. 11. [Reuters, 7-20-05, 7-4-02; New York Times, 8-1-93]

In separate incidents on Tuesday, July 26, mothers in Falls Church, Va., and Zephyrhills, Fla., kicked their young sons (ages 4 and 7, respectively) out of their cars on busy highways and abandoned them as punishment for backtalk. Channoah Alece Green, 22, in Virginia even knocked her son down driving off on Interstate 495 as he tried to climb back in. The problem addressed by Lori Heine, 46, in Florida was that her son wanted a McDonald's Cheeseburger Happy Meal when she had already bought him a McNuggets Happy Meal. [Washington Post, 7-27-05] [St. Petersburg Times, 7-28-05]

HAHA here is some WATER for MOO and his GOLDEN MEANS

For a six-month period four years ago, government scientists in Florida studied a "miracle" liquid called "Celestial Drops" as a cure for the canker menace that ravages the state's citrus crops. According to a July report by the Orlando Sentinel, the research was recommended by then-secretary of state Katherine Harris, who later said she had learned of Celestial Drops from New York rabbi Abe Hardoon, who is associated with the popularized version of Kabbalah, whose organizers sell its followers ordinary water that is supposedly "blessed" by being stored in a room with sacred texts. Celestial Drops, which was promoted as having "improved fractal design," "infinite levels of order" and "high energy and low entropy," was ultimately revealed by the scientists to also be water. [Orlando Sentinel, 7-5-05]

Now Harris is the one that gave Bush the election no? BWAHAHA

You are going to get all these fuggin loons to adapt libertarian philosophy - HAHA - maybe michael is not the only one living in Neverland with Peter Pan! HAhA!