Re: Add it to the long list of complaints against the Jews aggressively promoted by Mr. Hitler and others over the years.
Mind if I add political prisoner Vanunu's complaint to the list? Clue:
Inside the machine
Banned from talking to foreign journalists, Mordechai Vanunu continues to challenge the State of Israel. He spoke to Ian Douglas in Jerusalem
I come to his door, it is open. He breaks off from typing, rises, eyes averted, guarded though we have previously met. Mordechai Vanunu has a lot on his mind. He seems, as we speak, in some way behind his own thoughts, somewhere in the back of his own mind, locked in combat. A butterfly flutters in the inner courtyard of St George's Cathedral, his haven. For exposing the State of Israel's secret nuclear weapons programme, Vanunu endured 18 years' imprisonment, 11 in solitary confinement. Kidnapped in Italy in 1986, held hostage by Israel in 2005, though out, for Vanunu it's not over.
What is the current status of your case?
They gave me one more year to stay here and kept the restrictions: not to travel freely, not to meet foreigners, not to go to embassies. I'm also charged in court, for the interviews I gave. My lawyer is trying to prove that these charges and restrictions are contrary to human rights and democracy. What is in court is Israeli democracy and how it relates to freedom of speech. The United States and Europe speak about Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East, but in fact it doesn't exist. For this reason I'm challenging them and speaking.
The last time we met you told me that had you accepted these restrictions and hid in your room, Israeli security would see that you were damaged and would find ways to magnify that.
I decided not to fear, not to play obeying orders, like I'm a spy. I should go to the street and meet anyone and talk, because I want to exercise my humanity. If I were to follow their orders they would come with more. So I took the risk that an Israeli court would punish me. I also believe that by speaking and meeting people I'm bringing my case to the world media, who will judge Israel according to what they do to me or to others. I think it will be difficult to punish me in the name of these restrictions. I also want to use my case to let the Palestinians see how to challenge Israel.
Given that you have nothing new to reveal about Israel's nuclear programme, these restrictions must be related to a broader purpose.
It's part of the Israeli system. There is a central power guiding and controlling people according to certain rules; what it wants people to know, how to behave. By challenging them I'm challenging this system. From the beginning this case was a challenge to the system. They used to remind the Israeli people constantly, "holocaust, holocaust!" but then I came and let them see that the real problem is Israel's atomic bomb. That is the real holocaust. Or what they did to the Palestinians is the holocaust. We cannot live in the past. I say, "no, we should see what you are, what kind of a society you are building here." They are treating people like animals. This is what Nazism did. And this is what Israel is doing now to the Palestinians, or to me.
The blood myth -- race, purity -- underpins Nazism likewise the "Jewish state": both seem out of step with history, anomalies or echoes from the 19th century.
From 2000 years ago! This Israeli state poses problems to the whole world. The world was moving towards freedom, democracy, liberty, equal rights, and then the Jewish state came, in 1948, and brought a kind of negative democracy. In the name of state security you can do whatever you want. You can seize rights, invent rules, punish without trial. It has become more and more an apartheid state. They play like a democracy, but it is a super-race state for the Jews. I believe this will change or be changed in the future; the world cannot swallow it.
To question Judaism these days is quickly labelled anti-Semitism. How do you answer that?
Every race, every human being can believe whatever he wants. But if you want to rule a state, there is only one standard: equal rights and respect of human rights, whoever you are. You cannot put religion above that. So we are not anti-Semitic. Everyone can go to his synagogue. But to have a parliament, government, that should be for all the people. In Europe, and everywhere in the world, the Jews have the right to do whatever they like. They should give equal rights to the Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories, and end the occupation. We cannot accept a Jewish state. We demand a secular state.
Given your views about equal rights -- or the lack of them -- in Israel, presumably you're not in favour of a two-state solution?
Right. I think the most acceptable solution -- and permanent solution -- is one state. If you have two states, you'll have a Jewish, racist, apartheid state that will not respect the Palestinians (the so-called "Arab Israelis") and a small state, Palestine, trying to behave like a democracy under effective Israeli power. The Jews may not be ready for a one state solution, but sooner or later they will learn that there is only this solution.
The other thing they have to realise is that you cannot force a people into peace. If you are building the wall and taking land, building settlements, what kind of peace or future exists for the Palestinians? This militaristic attitude should end. Here, there's no one to fight, so now they fight civilians. Israel is exporting to the world new kind of activities for military powers -- ruling, controlling civilians. Manning checkpoints. Arresting civilians. Checking them. Following them. Questioning them. The model for what America did in Iraq.
Given the history of the Jews, isn't there justification for Israel having a nuclear deterrent?
No, because I think the only way towards safety and peace, towards surviving, is by peace. You cannot survive or save anyone by killing others. The only function of the atomic bomb is if you want to commit suicide. Israel became worse, and it's because of the atomic bomb. Atomic weapons do not ensure survival but the opposite.
What did you think of the collapse of nuclear non-proliferation talks at the UN in May?
They came to ask me, "What is your message to this conference?" and I told them I'm tired of this treaty because it didn't do anything. We want timetables as to when the world will be free from nuclear weapons. And they should deal with the State of Israel. The time has come to speak out. The world should no longer accept that a small state cheats. That is what Israel introduced to the world: proliferation and dissimulation -- or, lying -- not the opposite, which is where the world should go. So I'm happy that the meeting collapsed because it made it clear that there's no real non-proliferation treaty.
Do you feel a psychological burden from being imprisoned for 18 years?
No, it's not burdening. It's the opposite. It's helping me to see much better: to see the reality and understand everything in my own way. And now because I'm free and I can see in the free world -- in the street, in shops, on TV -- this game, this system, how it is working, how it is controlling. My target each day in prison was to find out what exactly they want; what is their mission, what is their purpose. It was psychological warfare between us, everyday, for many years, but always underground. Their target was to conquer my mind, change it or break it or destroy it. I refused them. Even I tried to cause them damage. If they try to push me to this side I will go to the other side. If they try to remind me of the holocaust, I answer them by enjoying German opera. If they try to bring me to the Jewish faith, I answer them by enjoying Christianity or celebrating what is opposite to the Jewish faith.
So you had strategies for surviving prison?
I did many things. I started by reading in a loud voice. I cannot speak to anyone so I exercised my speech by reading the New Testament in a loud voice each day, singing, praying in a loud voice. I was fighting those fighting me and strengthening myself. By just hearing myself speaking, reading, singing, it inspired me to know I am strong and alive. If you are quiet, you feel like you do not exist. Later I started enjoying music -- opera. I enjoyed opera before, but now I asked people to send many more operas. I used to hear them and feel totally free, and happy, like an opera singer. And if something happened to me, disappointed me, if they were punishing me, I could enjoy opera. Every two or three hours, running away from the prison to the opera.
Why opera?
The structure of the music is good. In classical music, the structure is strong. It gets you also to think, to build your thinking in the same pattern. When I got out from prison I demonstrated that I want to be the same as I was and to speak and do exactly as I used to 18 years ago, like nothing happened. That is what the world witnessed.
Couldn't your release be not an end but an extension of the game?
I think they realise that after 18 years if a man survives they're never going to win. My message is that the human mind, the human spirit, is very free and no one can destroy or change it, not by any system. I beat them at their game. My aspiration now is to be far away from Israel -- to be totally free from this Jewish state. I don't want to be part of it. I'm here waiting to end the story. When I leave Israel, it will be the end, a new life. I'm waiting for this new life.
The interviewer is visiting professor of political science at An-Najah National University, Nablus, Palestine.
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