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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: one_less who wrote (169929)8/26/2005 3:04:27 PM
From: one_less  Respond to of 281500
 
oops, correction (retraction). It is Cindy's supporters who describe Al-Sadr as a noble person; I haven't actually seen quotes from Cindy doing that.

Sorry.



To: one_less who wrote (169929)8/26/2005 3:04:43 PM
From: cnyndwllr  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
Re: "Casey was killed when he volunteered to go on a mission to put down a violent rebellion by Al-Sadr followers........Too bad Cindy doesn’t appreciate the tremendous honor her son deserves for making such a noble sacrifice.

Too bad you apparently don't understand the implications of what you posted.

If, as you say, Al Sadr is far more dangerous than Al Queda and since you acknowledge that we let Al Sadr walk away after making himself a hero by fighting us, then how was Casey's death worthwhile?

In fact, take it back one step further. In a war where we removed an anti-radical Islam dictatorship, destroyed virtually every institution other than the religious ones and can only salvage "victory" by jumping on the fundamentalist Shiite bandwagon and aiding in the creation of a nation where no law may contradict the fundamental teachings of Islam, how is Casey's death worthwhile?

Then there are, of course, the other 1800 + American lives lost, the huge number of civilians dead, the chaos of what is now Iraq, the billions of American dollars spent, the countless hours and brainpower invested and the huge loss of goodwill and respect throughout the world.

Maybe Cindy Sheehan sees the big picture much more clearly than you do? Ed



To: one_less who wrote (169929)8/26/2005 5:09:37 PM
From: steve dietrich  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Maybe she doesn't "get" Bush trying to draw Al-Sadr into the political process after all his militant activities.



To: one_less who wrote (169929)8/26/2005 6:52:57 PM
From: Wharf Rat  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
"Too bad Cindy doesn’t appreciate the tremendous honor her son deserves for making such a noble sacrifice."

Too bad you don't appreciate the honor Cindy deserves for trying to keep other mothers from sacrificing their kids. Ain't nothing noble about that; Not even Abe had to sacrifice his own kid to God. The greatest honor we can give Casey is to get out,in his name, right now. Yesterday, even.
You want noble sacrifices? Join and fight. We'll tell ourselves once in a while about how Gem died so noblely for oil and so that the other deaths would be meaningful. What a guy.



To: one_less who wrote (169929)8/26/2005 7:12:42 PM
From: illyia  Respond to of 281500
 
Your post fascinates me, and reminded me (again; as I have been reminded for some twenty years) to check the Mahdi reference with Dune and Frank Herbert's occasionally chilling precognition of current events. Mahdi is a title little understood, certainly not by me...although I am closer...

*** ***
You wrote:
Muqtada Al-Sadr hates Americans as much as Al-Zaraqawi. They hate each other even more. Al-Sadr should be viewed as the Shi'ite form of OBL. He began to preach to his followers that Al-Mahdi is preparing to reveal himself and that the Americans know it and plan to murder him (according to Sadr, our real reason for invading Iraq).

Al-Mahdi is a figure believed by both Shi’ites and Sunnis to exist in non-visible form. Prophesy says he will reveal himself near the end of time and go to pray with Jesus (second coming) in Mecca. Following that he will lead the world Kaliphate government as Jesus leads the World’s religion.


From Wikipedia, in reference to Frank Herbert's work Dune:
en.wikipedia.org

The Mahdi (also Mehdi or Mihdi), in Islamic eschatology, is a prophecy about a redeemer of Islam, who will change the world into a perfect society just before Yaum al-Qiyamah, literally meaning the "Day of Resurrection" (the end times).

In a hadith widely regarded as authentic, Muhammad said:

"Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left before Doomsday (Day of Judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person out of my Ahlul Bayt who will be called by my name. He will then fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny before then."
Sahih Tirmidhi, V2, P86, V9, P74-75.
The exact nature of the Mahdi differs between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims.

The Mahdi in Sunni traditions
The exact nature of the Mahdi is not completely clear, but according to Sunni traditions a basic overview is as follows:

The Mahdi will appear during the last days of the world, and will precede the second coming of Jesus, whom Muslims believe to be the messiah. The two are different individuals, but they will work together to fight evil in the world and to cement justice on Earth. Mahdi means "the guided one" and he will apparently come from Mecca and rule from Damascus. He will not defeat the false Messiah or anti-christ, known as the Dajjal (liar); that will be done by Jesus. Once the Dajjal is defeated, Jesus and the Mahdi will live on Earth for many years. According to some traditions, Jesus will get married and have a family, and then die. There are claims that a grave is dug for him next to Muhammad's in the Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina, but this is not a universal Sunni belief.

Ali ibn Abi Talib, the fourth caliph, reported that the Prophet Muhammad said, "Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah (Day of judgement) to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initially was filled with oppression."

[edit]
Features of the Mahdi
According to other reported sayings of Muhammad some of the features of al-Mahdi are:

He will be tall
He will be fair-complexioned
He will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. ...
His facial features will be similar to those of the Prophet Muhammad
His character will be like that of the Prophet Muhammad
He will be a member of the Prophet Muhammad's Ahlul-Bayt Household.
He will be a descendent of Hazrat Hassan(ra) or Hussein(ra) [According to Different Traditions]
His father's name will be Abdullah [same as Prophet Muhammad's father]
His mother's name will be Aamina [same as Prophet Muhammad's mother]
His name will be "Muhammad"
He will speak with a slight stutter
He will occasionally hit his hand upon his thigh when he stutters
His age at the time of his emergence will be forty years (like Muhammad)
He will be born in Medina (literally a city or township)
He will receive knowledge from Allah
[edit]
The Mahdi in Shiite traditions
Twelver Shia Muslims believe that the Mahdi is the last (i.e. 12th) of the Imams.

The Mahdi was actually born in 868, but went into occultation when he was five. See also: Muhammad al-Mahdi

As in the Sunni tradition, Shiites believe that the Mahdi will return to Earth at the end of times and will usher in a new age of peace and help defeat the false messiah.

Many of the prophecies concerning the Mahdi come from Hadiths, which can vary greatly between Sunni and Shi'a traditions. Shi'a Muslims have references to the Promised One from the Imams, which aren't accepted by Sunni Muslims.

[edit]
Claims of being the Mahdi
[edit]
Syed Mohammad Jaunpuri
Syed Mohammad Jaunpuri (1443 - 1505), another historical claimant was born in northeastern India, in Jaunpur, in the modern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. Jaunpur is known for its Islamic universities, which have produced numerous Islamic scholars.

[edit]
Siyyid Mírzá 'Alí-Muhammad
In 1844, Ali Muhammad declared to be the promised Mahdi in Shiraz, Iran, taking the title of "the Báb" (Gate).

He was preceded by Shaykh Ahmad-i-Ahsa'i, who started the Shaykhi movement in preparation for the coming Promised One. Almost all the Shaykhis accepted the Báb, who was executed 6 years later by the Persian government. An estimated 20,000 followers of the Báb were also killed in government sponsored massacres across the Persian Empire.

The religious tradition continued into what is today the Bahá'í Faith.

[edit]
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
The Punjabi Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded the Ahmadiyya Movement within Islam in 1889.

According to a Hadith and the Ahmaddiya movement, one of the signs which will indicate the emergence of the Mahdi will be that in the month of Ramadan prior to his emergence, a solar eclipse, followed by a lunar eclipse will be visible from the East and the West. These signs were visible right after the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be the promised Mahdi. These claims are disputed by many non-Ahmadi Muslims.

[edit]
Muhammad Ahmad
Muhammad Ahmad, who founded a short-lived empire in Sudan in the late 19th century made a claim of being the promised Mahdi. His troops laid siege to Khartoum starting on March 13, 1884 against the defenders led by British General Charles George Gordon. The heavily damaged city fell to the Mahdists on January 26, 1885. Omdurman, a suburb of Khartoum, was the scene of the bloody battle (September 2, 1898) in which British forces under Sirdar Horatio Kitchener defeated the Mahdist forces defending the city.

[edit]
Mohammed bin Abdullah
Mohammed bin Abdullah, the "Mad Mullah" of Somaliland. He was a problem for the British and Italian authorities in Africa from 1900 to 1920.

He was a charismatic figure credited by his followers with supernatural powers. At first peaceful, he began attacking neighbouring tribes friendly to the British and declared himself a Mahdi.

[edit]
Juhayman ibn-Muhammad ibn-Sayf al-Utaibi
In November of 1979 the Grand Mosque in Mecca was seized by a well-organized group of 1,300 to 1,500 men under the leadership of Juhayman ibn-Muhammad ibn-Sayf al-Utaibi. A former captain in the Saudi White Guards (National Guard), he declared himself to be the Mahdi, the redeemer of Islam. [1]

Most of the 6,000 pilgrims taken hostage rallied to support him, and joined the fight. After the two week long siege of the Mosque by Saudi special forces, foreign paramilitary troops from France and Pakistan were brought in to end the fight.

[edit]
Wallace Fard Muhammad
Wallace Fard Muhammad, is said to be the Mahdi by the Nation of Islam

[edit]
The Mahdi in fiction
Several authors have used the concept of the Mahdi in fictional stories. Perhaps the best known is Frank Herbert, whose Dune science fiction novels centered on the character of Paul Atreides, who was proclaimed by his followers, the Fremen, to be the Mahdi. Paul's Fremen name, "Muad'Dib", is also from Arabic, meaning "teacher of adab (manners and respect)".

[edit]
External links
Islam QA
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi"

*** ***
Additional infomation on Dune, and its parallels to current events:

en.wikipedia.org

*** ***

Herbert's "prescience" - and his focus on prescience is in fact prescient, as one can clearly see from simply reading the Wikipedia entry. Also, the use of myths to guide and inform - and create - the sheiks and heroes of the future is clearly being played out today, although in a less literal way.

I post this not to call attention to the story Dune but rather to point to the interaction and interrelationships of myth in correlating past, present and future; in directing the present toward that future; and in laying out the drama we watch from our comfortable homes, everyday. That which we call "reality" is just a hair's breath from the myths (inspired, religious or secular) we live by, as Joseph Campbell would say.

I trust all the believing parties will act out their scripts, as they have been handed them. With some keen eyes and slight investigation we might even become "prescient" ourselves...

The Myth Becomes the Reality,
illyia
(And, Gemstone, an excellent explanation, btw...)



To: one_less who wrote (169929)8/27/2005 12:56:13 PM
From: Wharf Rat  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
"In order for this to take place the final war has to be fought, with the Mahdi’s Army as victor."

Been there, done that. Made a good movie. Now it's boring.

homepage.ntlworld.com

Messiah, Jesus, Mohammad, Mahdi, ....We're all looking for something ...........

Hey man
I don't wanna hear about love no more
I don't wanna talk about how I feel
I don't really wanna be me no more

Dress down now I look a little too
Boy next door
Maybe I should try to find a downtown whore
That'll make me look hardcore
I need you to tell me what to stand for

I've been looking for something
Something I've never seen
We're all looking for something
Something to be

Hey man
Play another one of those heartbreak songs
Tell another story how things go wrong
And they never get back
My pain is a platinum stack
Take that shit back
You don't wanna be me when it all goes wrong
You don't wanna see me with the houselights on
I'm a little too headstrong
Stand tall
I don't wanna get walked on

I can't stand what I'm starting to be
I can't stand the people that I'm starting to need
There's so much now
That can go wrong
And I don't need nobody
Trying to help it along
It's the same old song
Everybody says you've been away too long
Everybody wanna tell you what went wrong
Wanna make you like an icon
Till you believe that they're right

===========================================================
I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere, somewhere
I know I’ll find you somehow
Somehow, somehow
And somehow I’ll return again to you

The mist is lifting slowly
I can see the way ahead
And I’ve left behind the empty streets
That once inspired my life
And the strength of the emotion
Is like thunder in the air
’cos the promise that we made each other
Haunts me to the end

I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere, somewhere
I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere you can hear my voice
I know I’ll find you somehow
Somehow, somehow
I know I’ll find you somehow
And somehow I’ll return again to you

The secret of your beauty
And the mystery of your soul
I’ve been searching for in everyone I meet
And the times I’ve been mistaken
It’s impossible to say
And the grass is growing
Underneath our feet

I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere, somewhere
I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere you can hear my voice
I know I’ll find you somehow
Somehow, somehow
I know I’ll find you somehow
And somehow I’ll return again to you

From the words that I remember
From my childhood still are true
That there’s none so blind
As those who will not see
And to those who lack the courage
And say it’s dangerous to try
Well they just don’t know
That love eternal will not be denied

I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere, somewhere
I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere you can hear my voice
I know I’ll find you somehow
Somehow, somehow
I know I’ll find you somehow
And somehow I’ll return again to you

Yes I know it’s going to happen
I can feel you getting near
And soon we’ll be returning
To the fountain of our youth
And if you wake up wondering
In the darkness I’ll be there
My arms will close around you
And protect you with the truth

I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere, somewhere
I know you’re out there somewhere
Somewhere you can hear my voice
I know I’ll find you somehow
Somehow, somehow
I know I’ll find you somehow
And somehow I’ll return again to you