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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: cnyndwllr who wrote (171196)9/23/2005 2:16:19 PM
From: Hawkmoon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hawk..welcome to the real world. After reading your last series of posts I'm amazed at the change in your positions.

I don't believe I've altered my overall positions very far...

I still believe that the threat is militant Islam and that we were inevitably going to have to be involved in a fight against them.

Quite simply, Iraq is being invaded by UNWANTED Foreign Fighters under the control of a NON-IRAQI religious fanatic, Zarqawi, who is vying to replace Bin Laden as head of Al Qai'da on the international stage.

And I believe I've always stated that Iraq was comparable to a prison camp where the "inmates" have suddenly been given freedom after 30 years and they don't know how to behave (as one Iraqi general put it, "the Iraqi people have lost their moral compass because of Saddam's regime. It will take several generations to rebuild it".

I've also stated that Iraqi is important geo-politically because it's smack dab in the heart of the radical part of the Mid-east, between Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Creating the foundation for lasting political and social change here will create similar demands for change in its neighboring countries.

However, if I recall your opinion correctly, we should have just left Saddam in power and perpetuated placing temporary political "band-aids" on a regional problem..

And you claim that what we're doing is NOT impeding their efforts. Listen.. the other day Zarqawi came out with a direct call for all-out war against the Shiites in hopes of sparking a civil war between them and the Sunnis.

The next thing you know, he was FORCED by the Sunni leadership of Iraq to RETRACT that statement and amend it to "only Shiites who collaborate with the Coalition Forces and Iraqi government".

It's a small step.. but it's a VERY positive sign that Zarqawi is losing influence among his Sunni Arab constituency.

Furthermore, on a grand strategic scale, what is being revealed in Iraq is that the Jihadists DO NOT CARE if they kill fellow Muslims (something DIRECTLY OUTLAWED in the Koran). And IMO, the only way we can motivate the moderate muslim leadership to assert itself, is if Islamo-Fascism is stripped of its facade of only waging war against "infidels".

It's sad to say, but every suicide bombing committed against muslims here in Iraq deprives Zarqawi of all but the most extremist, or mentally deranged, followers.

Hamas can claim it's only targeting Jews.. But Zarqawi's groups has shown it's true colors and it's "vision" for the kind of intolerant ideology it wishes to impose upon Muslims around the world.

And doesn't this seem to jibe with what you just stated.. That they have to experience the repercussions of living under such a society before they can make an honest decision not to choose such a system? Well, that's what is happening, more and more, here in Iraq. The fighting between Sunnis and Zarqawi's forces in Anbar province is indicative of that.

What force can we exert to "train" that, what incentives can we offer to "train" that, what is it that can make a separate and ancient society change it's views on tolerance, governance, women's rights, ethics, religious values, etc., etc.?

Force? None..

However, education, instruction, and leading by example, can have quite an effect.

There was not true professional "NCO Corps" in the previous Iraqi army. Officers were considered "Gods" and their was a strict caste system in place. That's much less the case in the new Iraqi army (although there is still corruption).

If you recall, the US military, over the course of decades, was the leading force for racial and sexual integration.. It was far ahead of the rest of society.

Gotta go!!

Hawk



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (171196)9/24/2005 2:21:27 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
Soldier's Chilling Testimony Fuels Demonstrations Against Iraq War

commondreams.org



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (171196)9/26/2005 10:41:40 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
Anatomy Of A Disgrace

cunningrealist.blogspot.com

Some readers may recall that I've written about Pat Tillman before. The San Francisco Chronicle is out with this must-read article that updates the story with new details. Some excerpts:

A Chronicle review of more than 2,000 pages of testimony, as well as interviews with Pat Tillman’s family members and soldiers who served with him, found contradictions, inaccuracies and what appears to be the military’s attempt at self-protection.

For example, the documents contain testimony of the first investigating officer alleging that Army officials allowed witnesses to change key details in their sworn statements so his finding that certain soldiers committed “gross negligence” could be softened.

Interviews also show a side of Pat Tillman not widely known — a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books on World War II and Winston Churchill to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author.

The horrific description of his death at the hands of his fellow soldiers:

The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, dammit.” He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.

The soldier continued, “I then looked over at my side to see a river of blood coming down from where he was...I saw his head was gone.”

The political context of a deception:

Tillman’s death came at a sensitive time for the Bush administration — just a week before the Army’s abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in Iraq became public and sparked a huge scandal. The Pentagon immediately announced that Tillman had died heroically in combat with the enemy, and President Bush hailed him as “an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror.”

His killing was widely reported by the media, including conservative commentators such as Ann Coulter, who called him “an American original — virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be.” His May 3, 2004, memorial in San Jose drew 3,500 people and was nationally televised.

Not until five weeks later, as Tillman’s battalion was returning home, did officials inform the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by his fellow soldiers.

The fate of his superiors on the ground that day:

According to the documents and interviews, Capt. William Saunders, to whom platoon leader Uthlaut had protested splitting his troops, was allowed to change his testimony over a crucial detail — whether he had reported Uthlaut’s dissent to a higher ranking commander. In initial questioning, Saunders said he had done so, but when that apparently was contradicted by that commander’s testimony, Saunders was threatened with perjury charges. He was given immunity and allowed to change his prior testimony.

The regiment’s commander, Lt. Col. Jeffrey Bailey, was promoted to colonel two months after the incident, and Saunders, who a source said received a reprimand, later was given authority to determine the punishment of those below him.

The handling of the physical evidence:

A soldier who on April 23 burned Tillman’s bullet riddled body armor — which would have been evidence in a friendly-fire investigation — testified that he did so because there was no doubt it was friendly fire that killed Tillman. Two days later, Tillman’s uniform and vest also were burned because they were soaked in blood and considered a biohazard. Tillman’s uniform also was burned.

And some interesting new background:

Yet other Tillman family members are less reluctant to show Tillman’s unique character, which was more complex than the public image of a gung-ho patriotic warrior. He started keeping a journal at 16 and continued the practice on the battlefield, writing in it regularly. (His journal was lost immediately after his death.) Mary Tillman said a friend of Pat’s even arranged a private meeting with Chomsky, the antiwar author, to take place after his return from Afghanistan — a meeting prevented by his death. She said that although he supported the Afghan war, believing it justified by the Sept. 11 attacks, “Pat was very critical of the whole Iraq war.”

Baer, who served with Tillman for more than a year in Iraq and Afghanistan, told one anecdote that took place during the March 2003 invasion as the Rangers moved up through southern Iraq.

“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”

Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.

The extent of the disgrace defies belief: the initial coverup of the way Tillman died, the harvesting of that death for political expedience as the Abu Ghraib story broke, the predictable promotions of those arguably responsible for what happened on the ground that day, the changing of crucial testimony, the destruction of physical evidence, and the willful, flat-out lies our political and military leadership told to Tillman's family and the American public.

In the context of Tillman's strong and openly-stated opinions about Bush and the war in Iraq, it's all more than a bit interesting.