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To: Solon who wrote (115)	11/2/2005 11:53:32 AM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 2133

It's easy to see when you are losing a (cough) argument because you inevitably resort to cutting and pasting articles so long that it would take a week to properly respond to them. I'll just take them one at a time. "78% of Canadians believe that the abortion decision is a private one that should rest with the individual woman in consultation with her doctor." As I already demonstrated the moral bankruptcy of mob rule morality by pointing to the historical examples of slavery and the Holocaust but here is another very current example that clearly shows your twisted logic for what it is. 78% of Iranians believes all Jews should be killed. That should settle it according to you; at least in Iran RIGHT???? You will no doubt ignore this and respond with a three page smoke screen quote from Ingersoll, but the fact remains that you have no answer for Jews in Iran because you believe might equals right and that there is no authority beyond societal norms that can be pointed to to refute any majority agreed upon practice such as abortion, murder or genocide.

To: Solon who wrote (115)	11/2/2005 11:58:53 AM
From: average joe	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 2133

Pilgrims flock to see Jesus on wardrobe...... Pilgrims are flocking to the flat of a Romanian family who claim the images of Jesus and two disciples have appeared on their wardrobe. Valeriu Junie, 66, of Drobeta Turnu Severin, says he first noticed the images about a year ago, just before Christmas. He said: "It all started one night when I was watching TV and noticed some shadows on our wardrobe. "I turned on the light and saw the image of Jesus in the middle and those of St Peter and St Paul on the sides. "I didn't say a word to anyone for a few weeks but then the images started to become clearer everyday. I decided to call the priests and since then lots of people come to my house to see the miracle." The wardrobe is made from walnut and is nearly 50-years-old. Valeriu's wife, Geta, 72, got it as a dowry on her wedding day from her parents. Local priest Vasile Nuhaiu said: "I was shocked by what I saw there. There were three shadows on that wardrobe with the face of Jesus Christ in the centre. "It is a miracle when Saints reveal themselves to us mortals and I crossed myself and started to pray. I told the two old people they should fast and pray to those holy images." ananova.com

To: Solon who wrote (115)	11/2/2005 1:41:19 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2133

"78% of Canadians believe that the abortion decision is a private one that should rest with the individual woman in consultation with her doctor." Those stats are changing as people become aware of the lies that people like you continue to perpetuate. When the number falls below 50% will abortion then be magically transformed into a moral evil? "Bad news for abortion supporters? By Michael Fumento "A new study in Archives of Disease in Childhood: Fetal and Neonatal Edition reports that using ultrasound researchers have found that fetuses appear to cry at 28 weeks, or four weeks into the third trimester. Since the discovery came about just by chance, directed research could find the behavior begins well before that: perhaps as early as the 2nd trimester in some babies. Yet, as Wikipedia's entry on abortion in the U.S. observes, "The current judicial interpretation of the U.S. Constitution regarding abortion in the United States, following the Supreme Court of the United States's 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade, and subsequent companion decisions, is that abortion is legal up to the moment of birth, if a woman can find a doctor willing to perform the procedure." Polls have been showing a steady decline in support for abortion among young women, with apparently much of that to do with observations made with ultrasound that narrow the viewer's belief in the distinction between fetus and baby. In fact, organizations that try to dissuade women from having abortions are increasingly using ultrasound machines to do so. This new report on crying fetuses could prompt a further decline in support for abortion." fumento.com

To: Solon who wrote (115)	11/2/2005 2:08:23 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2133

QUOTE; "1) There is no scientific consensus as to when human life begins, a point made by such institutions as the National Academy of Sciences and the American Medical Association.1 These scientists say that the point at which a new person comes into existence cannot be scientifically discovered; it is a matter of philosophic opinion or religious belief, not scientific fact. It requires a judgment of what we consider a human being to be. For instance, does a human being consist of genetic information, or a disembodied soul, or a consciousness in a body? Or is it a separate, social being who has been born?" .............................................................. First; Even if there is no consensus, (which is highly questionable from a strictly scientific standpoint) lack of consensus mitigates strongly against allowing abortion, because by their own admission; abortion advocates could be promoting the killing an Innocent Human being. Secondly the biological facts are not even in question from a scientific perspective. As Robert George notes: "“When does the life of a human being begin?” To answer this question is to decide whether or not human embryos are, in fact, human beings and, as such, possessors of inherent human dignity. Where do we go to find the answer? Not to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If the Catechism takes a position, it must do so derivatively. That is to say, its position will be derived from another source. (I’ll identify that source in a moment.) Not to the Bible, which says nothing about human embryos. Not to the Talmud, which (like the Bible) was composed centuries before the discovery of the ovum—-a time when almost nothing was known about embryogenesis. Not to the Koran. Not to our “moral intuitions.” Rather, we go to the standard texts of modern human embryology and developmental biology—for example, the texts by Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud; Bruce M. Carlson; Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Mueller; and William J. Larsen. When we consult these works, we find little or nothing in the way of scientific mystery or dispute. The texts tell the same story and answer the key question in the same way. Anyone who wishes to know when he or she as a distinct living member of the species Homo sapiens came into existence need only open any of these books and look up the answer." (Robert George, from the National Revue) Your source is trying to justify abortion by twisting and ignoring the scientific fact that a new and genetically distinct Human being begins to exist as such at the moment of conception.

To: Solon who wrote (115)	11/3/2005 12:36:23 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2133

"2)Biologists tell us that all life comes from pre-existing life. In other words, life does not begin, it is transmitted. The human egg and sperm are both living, human cells. At conception, two previously existing living things come together to form another living thing. Therefore, fertilization is not the beginning of human life, but is a significant step in its continuity" That is supposed to be a (cough) argument? Apparently you do not have anything stronger than to throw a mass of weak, sloppy, (factually and philosophically errant) arguments around hoping people will mistake sheer volume for substantive reason. Here is the distinction that real biologists make between a fingernail and a fetus. "Organisms are living beings composed of parts that have separate but mutually dependent functions. While organisms are made of living cells, living cells themselves do not necessarily constitute an organism. The critical difference between a collection of cells and a living organism is the ability of an organism to act in a coordinated manner for the continued health and maintenance of the body as a whole......Human life is defined by the ability to function as an integrated whole—not by the mere presence of living human cells. What does the nature of death tell us about the beginning of human life? From the earliest stages of development, human embryos clearly function as organisms. Embryos are not merely collections of human cells, but living creatures with all the properties that define any organism as distinct from a group of cells; embryos are capable of growing, maturing, maintaining a physiologic balance between various organ systems, adapting to changing circumstances, and repairing injury. Mere groups of human cells do nothing like this under any circumstances. The embryo generates and organizes distinct tissues that function in a coordinated manner to maintain the continued growth and health of the developing body. Even within the fertilized egg itself there are distinct “parts” that must work together—specialized regions of cytoplasm that will give rise to unique derivatives once the fertilized egg divides into separate cells. Embryos are in full possession of the very characteristic that distinguishes a living human being from a dead one: the ability of all cells in the body to function together as an organism, with all parts acting in an integrated manner for the continued life and health of the body as a whole. Linking human status to the nature of developing embryos is neither subjective nor open to personal opinion. Human embryos are living human beings precisely because they possess the single defining feature of human life that is lost in the moment of death—the ability to function as a coordinated organism rather than merely as a group of living human cells." (Dr. Maureen L. Condic is an Assistant Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah, currently conducting research on the regeneration of embryonic and adult neurons following spinal cord injury.) print.firstthings.com So far You and your (cough) expert authorities have argued; 1) Morality is based solely on 50% plus one vote. All ethical and moral decisions are relative and subject to the tyrannical whims of the majority. 2) If there is no consensus we should be able to do anything we want to Human beings, (who even knows what that is) including abortion and by logical extension, (as Singer advocates based on exactly the same reasoning) infanticide. 3) A fetus is no different than a fingernail or a flake of dandruff and therefore they can be killed and thrown away like any piece of garbage. But wait; when you think about it, you are nothing but a really big blob of cells, so we should be able to do the same thing to you. WOW!!! And those are presumably your strongest arguments????